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Author Topic: V1: Alive and Unspoiled  (Read 21901 times)

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April 19, 2011, 08:25:47 PM
Reply #45

hyvee_doughboy

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Re: V1: Alive and Unspoiled
« Reply #45 on: April 19, 2011, 08:25:47 PM »
Could work. Forums HAVE been dead lately. However, it's as I told on the other discussion, THIS card right here shows that the group is not ready yet to tackle V cards, we can only make "awesome" cards or "crappy/niche" cards. We had serious trouble with this one, specially understanding the concept.

What's wrong with niche cards?  Look at the cards that the star wars comitte has put together. I would argue that most of the cards are either
A) fixes/counters for abusive, negative play experience cards
B)niche cards

For example, I have 19 star wars decks, and most of the v cards don't fit in ANY of those decks. 

From my experience, the joy of virtual cards is being able to make new decks that never existed before, or enhancing strategies that were fun, but impractical before.  It takes niche cards to do that. 

People seem to have their hopes set too high here.  IMHO, if a v card fits into even 30% of decks, that means it's probably not balance well (how many cards do you know of that you can simply splash in 1/3 of your decks?)
 

April 19, 2011, 08:42:55 PM
Reply #46

macheteman

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Re: V1: Alive and Unspoiled
« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2011, 08:42:55 PM »
i agree. if a V card is dominating play, i believe we have missed our mark. V cards are great for tapping the unexplored potential of the game. if we completely change the average game experience, i think we've missed the mark.

April 20, 2011, 04:30:29 AM
Reply #47

FM

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Re: V1: Alive and Unspoiled
« Reply #47 on: April 20, 2011, 04:30:29 AM »
Guess you both raise a valid point. Though the cards are still closer to "crappy" than to "niche" a lot of the time. Or we try to force-niche some strategy that is simply not there, and won't be because of a single card (and if starts being, we did something seriously wrong, then).

April 20, 2011, 07:53:34 AM
Reply #48

Tbiesty

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Re: V1: Alive and Unspoiled
« Reply #48 on: April 20, 2011, 07:53:34 AM »
What's wrong with niche cards?  Look at the cards that the star wars comitte has put together. I would argue that most of the cards are either
A) fixes/counters for abusive, negative play experience cards
B)niche cards

For example, I have 19 star wars decks, and most of the v cards don't fit in ANY of those decks.  

From my experience, the joy of virtual cards is being able to make new decks that never existed before, or enhancing strategies that were fun, but impractical before.  It takes niche cards to do that.  

People seem to have their hopes set too high here.  IMHO, if a v card fits into even 30% of decks, that means it's probably not balance well (how many cards do you know of that you can simply splash in 1/3 of your decks?)

Totally agree!

I personally think we have some cool niche cards ideas to aid some weak FOTR stategies here.

Here's are two variations that I think would be cool for the Uruk-hai discard strategy.

Option 1:  (This is my personal favorite.  Even [Isengard] trackers could make use of this.)

[2] Alive and Unspoiled [Isengard]
Condition  
Search. To play, exert an Uruk-hai.
Bearer must be a companion.
Response: If bearer is about to take a wound in a
skirmish involving an Uruk-hai, prevent that wound to
make the Free Peoples player discard the top card from
his or her draw deck.

Option 2:

[2] Alive and Unspoiled [Isengard]
Condition  
Search. To play, exert an Uruk-hai.
Plays to your support area.
Uruk-hai may not be assigned to skirmish
Hobbit companions.
Each time a companion is killed, discard this
condition and the Free Peoples player must
discard the top 4 cards of his or her draw deck.


Are there any other ideas for this card at this time?  If not, let's keep moving.  I have some ideas for the other cards in this virtual set that I'd like to put out there.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 04:25:51 PM by Tbiesty »

April 20, 2011, 04:25:11 PM
Reply #49

Ringbearer

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Re: V1: Alive and Unspoiled
« Reply #49 on: April 20, 2011, 04:25:11 PM »
I fully disagree on these cards. Discard off the top is a huge NPE that will scare people off. It should not be inplemented.

April 20, 2011, 07:19:55 PM
Reply #50

macheteman

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Re: V1: Alive and Unspoiled
« Reply #50 on: April 20, 2011, 07:19:55 PM »
I fully disagree on these cards. Discard off the top is a huge NPE that will scare people off. It should not be inplemented.

i agree, and i stated that in my first post of this thread. discarding is not only very NPE, it as also a very well entrenched strategy that doesn't need V cards boosting it.

April 20, 2011, 08:01:37 PM
Reply #51

hyvee_doughboy

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Re: V1: Alive and Unspoiled
« Reply #51 on: April 20, 2011, 08:01:37 PM »
I must admit, didn't see much that I liked either. 

Discard decks certainly can be a huge NPE.  I'm not 100% opposed, would probably vote against it if I had a vote as well.
Since this is still the first round of V cards, id like to offer the following feedback
1. It OKAY to decide "lets just skip this", and throwing a card away.  At the risk of sounding like a broken record with my star wars comparisons, in swccg, they tried to make a blow-up-the-death-star-deck helper many sets in a row, but ultimately scrapped it each time due to balance issues.  That's OK!  Better to throw it away than to release it and regret it.

2. It seems that a lot of the discussion on this card has been "that doesn't fit with the theme of the card".  I make this suggestion: in the future, first figure out what we strategies to create and enhance.  THEN once there is a good idea, then find a card that fits the theme.  This makes things sooo much easier because creativity isn't being smashed just because of some quote on the card.  Its far easier to make a v-card and search for a fitting card than it is to pick an arbitrary card and invent new gameplay around it.


Just my 3 cents. 

April 20, 2011, 08:40:04 PM
Reply #52

Kralik

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Re: V1: Alive and Unspoiled
« Reply #52 on: April 20, 2011, 08:40:04 PM »
Option 2:
[2] Alive and Unspoiled [Isengard]
Condition 
Search. To play, exert an Uruk-hai.
Plays to your support area.
Uruk-hai may not be assigned to skirmish
Hobbit companions.
Each time a companion is killed, discard this
condition and the Free Peoples player must
discard the top 4 cards of his or her draw deck.

Great card.... for the Freeps! My Frodo will walk unscathed to Mount Doom through hoards of Uruk-Hai. Draw deck? Nah, don't need it.

I made a mistake like this when I played a Gollum-Shelob-Sauron bomb at Northern Ithilien versus Frodo-Sam-Smeagol and stupidly targeted Sam with Her Ladyship. Guess who had a party doubling to Dagorlad?

April 20, 2011, 10:28:14 PM
Reply #53

TheJord

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Re: V1: Alive and Unspoiled
« Reply #53 on: April 20, 2011, 10:28:14 PM »
Discard might mean a call for more Frodo, Courteous Halfling and Old Noakes, Raper of Discard Decks. Under utilised cards given more utility by expanding an underexpanded strategy.
"The rule of Gondor is mine!"

April 21, 2011, 01:24:39 AM
Reply #54

Ringbearer

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Re: V1: Alive and Unspoiled
« Reply #54 on: April 21, 2011, 01:24:39 AM »
Yes, but Frodo doesnt exsist in fellowship block yet, where this card will be used. And Old Noakes doesnt do anything against discard off the top of the deck.

April 21, 2011, 02:04:14 AM
Reply #55

Thranduil

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Re: V1: Alive and Unspoiled
« Reply #55 on: April 21, 2011, 02:04:14 AM »
I think it's probably not worth going into milling, especially given people's reactions to it in this thread.

Also, there's absolutely nothing wrong with leaving this card for the moment, moving onto something else, and coming back to it when we have better ideas, and a clearer idea of the set as a whole.

So I say, let's get on something else. I want to do another shadow card. Maybe we should have a look at Beauty Is Fading?

Thran

April 21, 2011, 03:22:19 AM
Reply #56

ket_the_jet

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Re: V1: Alive and Unspoiled
« Reply #56 on: April 21, 2011, 03:22:19 AM »
I'm just going to steal menace64's idea in the Chambers.

[2] Alive and Unspoiled [Isengard]
Condition * Support Area
To play, spot an [Isengard] minion.
[Shire] companions or allies cannot exert. Discard this condition at the end of the turn.

No more Sting in the regroup phase, no more Sam, Proper Poet, no more Merry, Friend to Sam. Potential to be huge for one turn.

Then again, it could mean people would pack four and is that what we want? Probably not.
-wtk

April 22, 2011, 09:23:46 AM
Reply #57

hyvee_doughboy

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Re: V1: Alive and Unspoiled
« Reply #57 on: April 22, 2011, 09:23:46 AM »
I'm just going to steal menace64's idea in the Chambers.

[2] Alive and Unspoiled [Isengard]
Condition * Support Area
To play, spot an [Isengard] minion.
[Shire] companions or allies cannot exert. Discard this condition at the end of the turn.

No more Sting in the regroup phase, no more Sam, Proper Poet, no more Merry, Friend to Sam. Potential to be huge for one turn.

Then again, it could mean people would pack four and is that what we want? Probably not.
-wtk


This would also turn off Bounder.   I'm not sure how much I like that.  Cetainly very powerful in earlier , pre-alternate ring bearer blocks.  Cetainly interesting. 

April 22, 2011, 05:01:47 PM
Reply #58

Hobbiton Lad

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Re: V1: Alive and Unspoiled
« Reply #58 on: April 22, 2011, 05:01:47 PM »
Or it just gets discarded by Albert Dreary during the maneuver phase, which is the problem with any [Isengard] condition.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 01:54:44 PM by Hobbiton Lad »