LotRO TCG - like server/client, what do you think?

[MarcinS]

First of all, this is my first post here, so let me say - Hello everyone!

Now to the point, I've recently rekindled my interest in LotR and I wanted to play it online using the old Decipher game they had, but to my disappointment it was discontinued. I know there is Apprentice, as well as GCCG, but I decided to start writing my own server/client to play LotR, which will take care of all the rules, triggers, etc. So it will play a bit like the old Decipher (Worlds Apart) LotRO client.

I'm a seasoned programmer (over 10 years of experience) and I've written the first client for playing L5R card game online (Gempukku), so I should be capable to write the server and client side alone. The only help I would probably need is the User Interface design and usability, as I'm terrible when it comes to these two things, and I know that these are crucial to make any "product" successful.

I've tried to find a screenshot of the gameplay from the Worlds Apart LotRO client, to see how I can plan out the game zones (free people characters/support cards, shadow, adventure path, etc) but I was not able to find any on the internet.

To make the game most widely accessible, I've decided to make it playable via browser with (D)HTML only. It should be playable on all modern browsers (AJAX support required), even including some phones, tablets - no downloads or installing required (cool right?).

For now I'll be using the images from the lotrtcgwiki.com, I hope the owner will not be mad and will allow me to use the links to images in the final game as well.

The server part for playing will be open source, all the rest, like collectible aspect, tournaments and leagues, due to security issues, probably closed source code). It will be totally free to play, though I might be accepting donations if anyone is willing to make any to help me with hosting.

Plans:
- start off with just allowing to play a game of LotRO (rules checking, all triggers, etc) one-on-one with a deck build from any cards you wish,
- implement all the expansions cards available, one set at a time (expansions will probably take around a week each to implement and test),
- introduce leagues and/or collectible aspect (like GCCG) and maybe tournaments if there will be enough interest.

Ok, now for the things I'd like to hear about from you:
1. Do you think there will be enough interest, to invest time in implementing it (it's not so great effort and I need a pet project anyway)?
2. What order should I implement the expansions in? I assume going from FotR onward is not a good idea, since probably most people play Standard, so starting with whatever first expansion in Standard is, makes more sense to me.
3. I'll need like 1-2 people who might help me out with alpha-testing it, so if someone is willing to help me out, just send a PM or post here. The requirements are: having some time in the evenings (Europe time zone, I'm in Ireland - GMT), having a stable internet connection and Chrome internet browser, since that's the browser I will be testing with in alpha, but all browsers should be supported later, having MSN account - so we could communicate, until I get a chat into the game (not priority).
4. If you have a screenshot of the gameplay from the Worlds Apart or even better - a movie with gameplay, please kindly share it with me.
5. If you have some experience with user interface and/or some graphic design - you can try to send me a user interface design (image or whatever suits you).

Thanks, and hope to see people getting some feedback.

[Sabrien Reed]

All sounds good.

I am in the UK too, and am also a software engineer.

I think most people prefer Movie block or War of the Ring Standard.  If you start with FOTR, then those are the most straightforward rules.

I do not have any screenshots of the LOTROTCG user interface, I'm afraid, but I can roughly remember how it looked.

One question though: What's wrong with just improving GCCG to automate some of the rules?  I was going to volunteer myself to do some of this.

[Not a Zombie]

GCCG has a great layout for playing and there are screenshots on this site under the GCCG questions area I think. I personally think it would be cool to have the option, although it might split people between GCCG and your client. The ability to play out of a browser would be a huge plus!

[MarcinS]

I'm not sure if architecture of GCCG is ready for introducing "rules", but I don't think so. And also, I've always been doing Java, not C++. And I also like having a pet project.

The screenshots I found were of GCCG not the old LotRO TCG client...

[Sk8rD13]

A friend and I have also been looking into just making a web-based/mobile-based client for the existing gccg framework.  The only hangup we have is when dealing with mobile devices smaller than tablets, there's just not enough screen room for all of the cards required, unless some type of alterations were made to the card images themselves. (or cards were hidden based on FP or Shadow status (this is LOTR specific, though)).

Good luck, as we are still in the UI design mode also.

[Sabrien Reed]

A bit of google searching found me a GUI screenshot of the LOTRO client:

http://www.mmoginfo.com/imagenes/foto_lord_rings_tcg.jpg

I see the point about making it work in a web browser.  That would be great.

[Kralik]

Best of luck in your efforts! In my opinion, automatic rules enforcement is a HUGE PAIN to code and doesn't add too much to the player's experience. When I played with friends in real life, we were more than capable of keeping tracks of things ourselves (though rules questions come up as always)...

And then there's the case of, "Yikes, I forgot to play that one Manuever card! Do you mind...? " and other situations where an enforced rules engine would choke.

[MarcinS]

Just an update on the status of the project. I think I have figured out most of the internal mechanics of the server and generic card effect overlays affecting cards, etc.

The initial game start procedure (bid, choose player order, play first site, play starting fellowship) is already implemented and working. I've started implementing the turn phases.

I think I'll be releasing the cards in reversed block order, so I'll start with Hunters block, then Shadows block, etc. If you think there is a better order that would benefit the community better, please let me know ASAP.

I'm still looking for volunteers to help me out with alfa-testing, and maybe someone to help me out with UI and graphics. If you're willing to help, PM me.

[azogsbane]

I have yet to try GCCG or any of methods of online play because I am pretty computer illiterate and my computer is a really old mac that probably couldn't handle it and wouldn't have the disk space to download it anyway (I've already been having to delete a lot of files). But this playing-through-a-browser thing might work for me! That would be very exciting.

I really think it would make sense to start with FotR though, and not go in reverse order. Lots of people prefer the movie block.

[Sk8rD13]

I am a fan of the 'generalization' of GCCG, and think that any work on an actual web client should conform to the same feel.  I think that Kralik's last mention of actual play mechanics is a good one.  It's so much more useful to have players keep track of certain rules, as they would IRL.  In addition, it takes less to code ;-).

Other considerations would include the security implications of using an ActiveX (IE) approach, a javascript approach, a java approach, or a flash/silverlight approach.  Having done a bunch of web and .NET development, I would advocate for a silverlight client, if nothing else but to accelerate development time.

Also, to get a useable interface even faster, it should simply communicate with the GCCG server as a client.  That way development only needs to happen on one end, and standards for communication are already set.

[Tbiesty]

Or just play on LackeyCCG.   A plugin for any card game can be created in a matter of hours.  No "real" programming required.

[MarcinS]

This post is mostly technical (geek talk), you might wish to skip it, if you're not interested. 

I think that Kralik's last mention of actual play mechanics is a good one.  It's so much more useful to have players keep track of certain rules, as they would IRL.  In addition, it takes less to code ;-).

Well, my main point is, that playing a game, where you just click on a card you want to play and not having to worry about adding twilight points, wounding, exerting, etc is so much faster. I'm pretty sure, that when considering for example MTGO or Apprentice (both programs to play Magic), most of the people would use MTGO, if not for the fact, that it costs money to play.

Also playing with a client that doesn't allow "take-backs" teaches you discipline and better technical play, not to mention, that "take-backs" might encourage non-fair-play game. Gaining extra information by "forgetting" to play something, etc.

Other considerations would include the security implications of using an ActiveX (IE) approach, a javascript approach, a java approach, or a flash/silverlight approach.  Having done a bunch of web and .NET development, I would advocate for a silverlight client, if nothing else but to accelerate development time.

I'm not gonna use any ActiveX for the client. It's pure JavaScript, leveraging some HTML5 features (should be working even without it, as AJAX was pre-HTML5). So in theory (it mostly does) it should be cross-browser/cross-system, have low memory footprint, no download required, no installation required, security in-built (if needed HTTPS could be used).

#$&*@!, I'll do my best to be able to run the client on my HTC Desire phone in a browser, just would need to work on some tweaks for small-screen devices (hiding inactive cards, gestures, etc).

As for speed of development... HTML+JS wins as well - you don't have to worry about, because all of this is done by the browser:
- connecting, disconnecting, reconnecting,
- resource (card images) loading, scaling, caching,
- client new versions, updating, supporting installation problems,
- skinning (CSS).

When it comes to clients, I don't think you can come up with better solution than HTML+JS in a browser.

Also, to get a useable interface even faster, it should simply communicate with the GCCG server as a client.  That way development only needs to happen on one end, and standards for communication are already set.

If the point is to do a rule-following server/client, than GCCG is probably out of contention.

[Kralik]

Well, my main point is, that playing a game, where you just click on a card you want to play and not having to worry about adding twilight points, wounding, exerting, etc is so much faster. I'm pretty sure, that when considering for example MTGO or Apprentice (both programs to play Magic), most of the people would use MTGO, if not for the fact, that it costs money to play.

GCCG actually has some of this in the LotR module and the code works--but it's commented out. Why? Because the game has lots of modifiers that make twilight costs not-so-cut-and-dried. Of course, you can program individual code for each of those cards, but that is why I think it would be a big pain. The sort of thing that would burn out any normal person.

[MarcinS]

The sort of thing that would burn out any normal person.

I'm not entirely normal. I'm slightly autistic. Repetitive work? Sign me up!

[MarcinS]

Seems Fellowship of the Rings block is wining by a lot in the poll, so this is the first block (set) to be released.

So far only one person has volunteered to help with alpha-testing. I'm hoping to start the tests next week. I've setup a server at home to allow people on the internet to connect to the game server.

I have loads of good news:
- I had to re-implement the whole server engine for running the rules, since I made too many assumptions, and going forward, it would have been taking ages for me to implement some cards. Thanks to these changes, now it takes me approximately (I measured that) 3-6 minutes to add a new card, depending on the complexity of the card.
- I've also abandoned PrototypeJS for JQuery to implement the client side. Surprise! It works flawlessly (without any changes) on my phone, so yesterday I was able to play through some fellowship+shadow phases in "me on my phone" vs "me on my PC" games.
- So far I got through the Fellowship and Shadow phases with the game flow, but I hope to get through archery today (or tomorrow), to finish off the main server part of the game by the end of this week. I was slightly delayed by having to write the whole server anew.

If no issues arise with work/life/whatever - my estimation would be to have FotR set out and kicking in 4-5 weeks.