First Gemp-LotR Sealed FotR League

[Felagund]

Allowing players to pick their starter for the TTT league was a terrific idea.  I'm willing to bet that there is some correlation between starter and results for the FOTR league.  Maybe not a huge amount, but with up to 5 Realms boosters, common Frying Pan really put the orc starters at a disadvantage.

How do you plan to set currency up?  Given current activity levels I have to imagine that rares will appear in relatively small numbers and the best ones will be aggressively fought over.  At least, that is the case if you have a limited supply of currency and more cards are the result of doing well in leagues and therefore not quickly or easily obtainable.  I would find it very frustrating to have my deck choices (and in particular, my ability to play around with different deck ideas) limited by the cards I happened to end up with or was able to trade for.  And trying to trade for cards to use for all the different formats supported here would be a daunting task indeed...

Whatever you do let me reiterate that everything you've put together here is awesome and is tremendously appreciated.

[MarcinS]

What I'd like to do, is to leave the "Casual" games as they are - you don't have to "own" the cards to play them (it's like you playing with friends - you allow proxies). The "My cards" (your collection) will be used only for tournaments and constructed leagues.

As for the currency, every day that you log to the system, you will be given a set amount of currency. This daily currency will be an equivalent of (not finalized yet) half a booster. So theoretically you should be able to just buy 3 boosters per week. What you can do instead of just buying boosters is play in tournaments/leagues (with an entry fee) and instead of getting just 3 boosters, if you play well, you might get a whole box of boosters.

In addition to normal boosters opening as a source of cards, I'm planning to add a merchant that will be selling and buying cards. The prizes of the cards will be based on stock market model (as perceived by 3rd party).

Whenever someone buys a card, the sell prize of that card increases, this prize also decreases with time by a set amount each minute. The exact opposite will happen when someone sells the card, the buy prize of that card decreases, and it increases with time.

I'm not decided yet on the card availability at merchant, if it should have infinite supply, or a limited one and just "acquires" new cards with time (card supply regenerating over time) or when someone sells a card to it.

Anyway, the idea of this merchant is that people will be able to get the card they want without opening huge amount of boosters, just the prize may be high, but market should regulate itself.

[hsiale]

Allowing players to pick their starter for the TTT league was a terrific idea.  I'm willing to bet that there is some correlation between starter and results for the FOTR league. 

Because of this reason I think allowing to pick a starter is a great idea. If you pick the wrong ones, you can only blame yourself, not random. And luckily the choice is not obvious in TTT block (at least that's my feeling).

By the way, I had an Orc starter (Moria starter, so Frying Pan could do a lot of damage), still I could win most games. There were far more annoying cards

As for the currency, every day that you log to the system, you will be given a set amount of currency. This daily currency will be an equivalent of (not finalized yet) half a booster.

This is very little. It usually takes more or less 100 boosters to build a competitive constructed deck out of scratch. And with many formats available players would need to build not one, but a few decks.

To compare, GCCG gives you money to buy 10 boosters for each game you win, 2,5 for each game you lose. I think this is a bit too much, but similar quantities could work much better (with some limits though) - for example: a game won earns you money for 5 boosters, a game lost earns you money for 2 boosters, only 10 games a week count (with wins counted first, so if you win 4 out of your 10 first games a given week, but then play a few more and get 3 more wins, you get money for 7 wins and 3 losses).

During this league I won everything I could (each series and general standings), still I feel I will not be able to build a FotR block deck without many compromises (and it definitely will be just one deck).

[Felagund]

I agree with hsiale.

Playing the game is fun.  It isn't strictly necessary to limit the cards available for use in constructed tournaments.  Therefore, if it is going to be done, it should be done in a way that is also fun.  Playing games and earning boosters each time is fun.  Forcing myself to log in every day for half a booster and then desperately searching for people willing to trade the rares I need, when they are simply scarce in general, does not sound like fun at all.

[hsiale]

Just played a game against Felagund as an unofficial series 4 final. Very fun game and also demanding, as we both knew more or less what the other is planning

Bid: my 5, his 4 (both increased compared to most games). So I'm going first, doubles to 3 are easy for both, fellowships grow. I go to 4, Hollin, Wizard Storm and 3 Uruks, so I take some damage and decide to do my only stop I planned for this game here (against Uruks I always plan 5 moves if I go first). Felagund doubles to 5, I kill his Arwen using Uruk Fighter and Saruman, SotE. Then I go to 6 without big problems, Felagund has played all companions, no Aragorn or Gandalf, Boromir is not ranger, so I'm quite sure he will not be able to use any pathfinding to avoid Shores of Nen Hithoel (only possibility left is Thror's Map which is rare). So I start collecting Orcs to get a stop there which he won't counter having mostly Uruk-hai. He doubles through sanctuary with Wizard Storm on the table, takes a lot of wounds, still my shadow wouldn't do much harm, so no minions appear. I heal and move to 7 without problem. I have 4 Orcs (2x , 2x ), one They Are Coming on the table, another in hand just in case some condition discard hits me. But I get hit with the only thing I did not prepare for: 2x Foul Creation. Two of my Orcs go to discard and even playing all Goblin Scavengers and Goblin Scimitars to try to draw into new minions doesn't save me, I end up with 4 minions and I can't use site's text. This decided the game, as Felagund doubles to 9 easily.

Game replay:
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=hsiale$6w8m2unnhjn9pshn

[hsiale]

I have started thinking about the prizes for the league, and here is what I came up with. If you have any ideas, feel free to post them here (in a form of "Place - (total booster count)FotR-MoM-RotEL, extras"):
1st - (36)22-7-7, 2x(choice of any Tengwar card from FotR block), foil set of "3 hunters" originally given to people who bought collector's edition of the movie)
2nd - (25)15-5-5, 1x(choice of any Tengwar card from FotR block), non-foil set of "3 hunters" originally given to people who bought collector's edition of the movie)
3rd-4th - (15)9-3-3
5th-8th - (10)6-2-2
9th-16th - (5) 3-1-1
17th-32nd - (3) 1-1-1

Every time I take part in some competition and happen to achieve a good result, I prefer a nice trophy over valuables. Boosters are good to have, but I think there could be some truly unique (but giving no competitive advantage at all) prize. My idea of it is that you take some card (a common that is used quite a lot, like Goblin Runner or Hobbit Sword, which additionally has little game text so there is some place left in text box), stick "Sealed FotR League - December 2011 - Winner's Trophy" at the bottom of the text box, change card number to T1 (T2 for TTT league and so on for further tournaments) and add it to winner's collection. This card could be made untradeable (although if I got one I would never trade it anyway). Alternatively, a suitable (having little game text) card from winner's deck he chooses could be made into the trophy.

About your proposition: I think the last group of prizes (1-1-1) can without problems go all the way to the bottom of the classification. What I always liked in local LotR tournaments in my city was that even if you finished dead last, you had your share of prizes, although way less than top players.

[MarcinS]

You have to keep in mind, that what you might think would be best (i.e. easy access to compete with any deck you wish), might be best only for you, instead you have to provide the tools to players to appeal to as wide audience as possible.

Players can be split into multiple groups, each having different goals and appreciating different things in the game. Some players will fall into multiple groups, some will fall somewhere between the groups.

1. Players who like the collectible aspect of the game, like to trade, seek the cards they want/need.
2. Players who like to compete and win by building the best deck and bringing the best game to the table.
3. Players who want to play test their decks for real-live tournaments (mostly French players).

If I want to make the people from group 1 happy, I can't just throw boosters/cash left and right, as it's not going to be collectible if in 1-2 months everyone will be able to build any deck you want from the "My cards" collection. There is nothing wrong with playing the cards you have, as limited as the pool is, as long as everyone else also has a limited pool.

To make the players in the group 2 happy, I have to provide tournaments and leagues. Leagues should provide some unique prizes to allow them to show them off.

To make the players in the group 3 happy, I have to provide a way to play any deck they want, without checking if they own the cards. That's what the "Casual" games are for.

I want to use the system that is used by MtGO, which is - to never give cash as prizes. Cash should be ideally acquired by all players at the same pace, that's why the daily bonus.

I don't want to reward playing non-competitive games. If a need arises for two-player tournaments with prizes and cash entry - then the prize should not provide too big of a +EV (expected value), so if the entry for this tournament is going to be amount of cash worth X boosters (*2 because of two players), then the prizes total can't be too much over the 2*X (total investment).

As I said, I'm not really set yet on the amount of cash given each day, but you need to take into account how many boosters are going to be added to the system each week from daily bonus alone. If you consider 40 regular players, then if 0.5 booster per day *40 players, it's 20 boosters daily, which is 140 boosters (4 boxes) weekly. And with the requirement to only log on (2-3 minutes of your time), then you will see that many players logging in. If you double the bonus to 1 booster worth per day, it's 8 boxes weekly... and that's from daily bonus alone.

The first league had almost 80 players, each got 15 boosters, which is 1200 boosters (33 boxes, so 8 boxes per week average). The booster prizes for each week of the league was 72 boosters (2 boxes), and the final prize will be almost 4 boxes (1 box per week). If you are worried about card access with 15 boxes of boosters (555 rares) opened each week, you have to also consider, that players will be able to buy singles from the merchant for the cash.

After I give out prizes for the league, there will be approx. 1600 rares in the game from first block alone...

[Felagund]

The first league had almost 80 players, each got 15 boosters, which is 1200 boosters (33 boxes, so 8 boxes per week average). The booster prizes for each week of the league was 72 boosters (2 boxes), and the final prize will be almost 4 boxes (1 box per week). If you are worried about card access with 15 boxes of boosters (555 rares) opened each week, you have to also consider, that players will be able to buy singles from the merchant for the cash.

After I give out prizes for the league, there will be approx. 1600 rares in the game from first block alone...

A few points.

1) 555 and 1600 rares might sound like a lot.  They aren't.  There are 200 rares in the block, so that means there are about 8 copies of each rare for 84 players to build decks from.  Guess how many of those players will want a ROTN or a Sting or a Legolas, Greenleaf?  And not everyone will want Servant of the Secret Fire, or Savagery, but those players who want them will want 4.  Seriously, two out of 84 players are allowed to run a competitive Gandalf deck?

An extra 555 boosters per week from 40 regular players plus a league of the current size will add an average of about two and a half copies of a rare per week.  This is not a very fast increase.  At that rate it will take about a year before ROTNs are not scarce... and that is assuming that players ONLY buy Fellowship Block boosters during that entire year, and that no leagues are from other blocks!

2) It's true that I am not accounting for the card merchant.  That will help, but it is somewhat irrelevant to the general pool size because every person who spends money on a rare is NOT buying a booster, and therefore is shrinking the pool of tradeable rares.  This is especially true if they want to buy a popular card that has become expensive.  If I spend $10 on ROTN that's three boosters (three rares) that are not going into the pool.

3) This might work out okay if there was only one set coming out at a time, as happened in real life.  It might... might... might... even work out if there was only one BLOCK coming out at a time.  But there are not.  There are a huge number of formats available.  Your constructed tournaments are going to have low attendance indeed if a given player is only able to gather the cards for one deck in one format.

4) You have a good point about different players wanting different things.  However, my assertion is that the system you have described will not make the category 1 players (the collectors) happy.  In fact, it may make them the least happy of all since the scarcity of cards will make it both harder to find particular rares, and harder to convince their owners to trade them.

5) Finally, the "you must log in every day to get your money" clause means that somebody who enjoys playing a few times per week but is too busy to come here every day, is locked out of both category 1 (collecting) and category 2 (constructed tournaments).  Yes, it only takes a minute to log in, but we all have days where we don't have that minute.  I do, anyway.  And if players feel penalized for things outside of the game, that won't make them want to stick around.

Anyway, maybe I am wrong about this stuff.  But this is what it seems like to me.

[MarcinS]

Ok, maybe I did not get the most important message across strongly enough - people should not be buying boosters for the cash provided, although there will be a possibility of doing just that. The main source for singles in the system should be (as it's in MtGO) - limited tournaments, followed by prizes plus merchant - simulating "larger player base".

Second, I don't know about you, but when I started playing LotR (or in fact any CCG/TCG), not everyone had the deck and cards they wanted. In fact even a few years after the game was released people still were looking for that elusive 4th Savagery.

I don't really understand why do you assume that in order to be competitive (as in having a chance to win) you'll need all the cards for the decklist? That would be required ONLY if everyone else (or at least some other people) had the cards they wanted and have built that perfect deck (and they will not, for exactly the reason you're not going to). It's even more true in this online environment, where everyone has the exact same resources (cash) as long as you start playing the game around the same time, as opposed to real life, where there were players attending tournaments that bought a case of boxes of every expansion.

Another important point is that the system can change, if the half-a-booster worth of cash indeed is not going to be enough of a card intake (card supply will be too slow), it can be increased and all will be fine. If we gave X-booster/day worth of cash and it turned out to be too much, then the damage might have been already done and the system might be already flooded with singles. The only way to fix that later would be to reset all collections and start over, and I can only assume that it would get a few people angry.

Finally the constructed tournaments/leagues. I've started the leagues with FotR block and am following it with TTT block for a reason. I want to stock people with these two blocks first, as these blocks are used in the highest number of popular and competitive formats - namely FotR block, Towers Standard and Movie. What that means is that at the beginning, the only constructed tournaments available will be in these formats, adding new blocks every month or so (there are 5 blocks, so not like it's going to take ages). If I were to pull a stunt and tried to organize tournaments in all the formats spanning all blocks, then indeed people would definitely not have cards to play them.

As for logging in every day, maybe indeed it's not a good idea, and the cash should be accumulating on your account even if you don't log in. It's just that I wanted to reward people being active, and who knows even if someone did not intend to play the game on some mid-week day, after logging in to get the "reward", will decide to play a quick one anyway? But maybe indeed it's just stretching it too thin.

Please keep the comments, and even better - suggestions, coming.

[Felagund]

Hmm.  Okay, you make some good points here.  I still think I disagree about the tournaments.  Maybe it would be possible to have some constructed tourneys that require you to own the cards, and some that allow you to play with any cards?

For an active play bonus, what about a weekly one?

[hsiale]

If I want to make the people from group 1 happy, I can't just throw boosters/cash left and right, as it's not going to be collectible if in 1-2 months everyone will be able to build any deck you want from the "My cards" collection.

"Any deck you want" and "1-2 competitive decks for each of the most popular formats" are two very different things. For example, currently I have 7 Movie Block tournament level decks built for casual games, and I could think of 2-3 more I didn't have time to work on yet. Probably I will never be able to collect cards for them all, but to think seriously of a Movie Block tournament, I would like to have at least nearly all cards for two of them.

There should be challenges for collectors in the game, but there should be both easy and hard ones amongst them. Currently even collecting a small set like MoM or RotEL would not be easy. And this should be an easy task, so that a beginning collector has an aim that is possible to achieve in relatively short time. After this is done, there should be medium level challenges available (like collecting a block, or a foil set of C/U cards), hard ones (foil set, foil competitive deck, promo set) and even ones nearly impossible (full playset of all cards, full foil set of all cards).

There is nothing wrong with playing the cards you have, as limited as the pool is, as long as everyone else also has a limited pool.

If everyone has limited pool of similar size and quality, there is nothing wrong. But if there are big differences, the game is no longer fun. If there was a constructed FotR tournament next week, I probably would not take part, as having way bigger card pool than most of the other players would feel like cheating to me.

Cash should be ideally acquired by all players at the same pace, that's why the daily bonus.

I don't agree with this. Activity should be rewarded (with some limit of course), not just logging in. For them there must be a way to get over average amount of cards that doesn't require them to be top players (with physical cards it was spending RL money, here we need to have something other instead), IMO the only possibility is rewarding activity (playing games, even if you don't win most of them).

I've started the leagues with FotR block and am following it with TTT block for a reason. I want to stock people with these two blocks first, as these blocks are used in the highest number of popular and competitive formats - namely FotR block, Towers Standard and Movie.

It will take quite many leagues (especially as to have Movie block decks, also sets 7-10 are needed) to really "stock" people with a good amount of cards. When I get all cards for league, I will try to build as good deck as possible out of them and will try to play casual FotR block games with it, I wonder what win rate I will be able to achieve.

It's even more true in this online environment, where everyone has the exact same resources (cash) as long as you start playing the game around the same time

And this is the problem. Each online game where you have to earn/develop your resources has a "catchup time" - when a new player, no matter his skill, cannot compete at the top. If this time is too long and a new player develops his skills way earlier than he can get his hands on a competitive package, the game will not atract new players and will slowly die when old payers leave gradually (which always happens).

people should not be buying boosters for the cash provided, although there will be a possibility of doing just that. The main source for singles in the system should be (as it's in MtGO) - limited tournaments, followed by prizes plus merchant - simulating "larger player base".

I never played Magic, neither online nor offline. Is there any webpage where I could find more info about that MtGO system - this could help me understand your ideas better

[MarcinS]

I guess it's all up to the definition of the "competitive" word. For me it means "able to compete against other player on the field", for you it seems "able to compete against ANY other deck". My take on this is - as long as your opponents are similarly disadvantaged (trouble acquiring all the cards they'd want for their "dream deck-list"), it's all going to be fine.

Just think of a real world scenario and ask yourself a question - how long would it take you to collect all the cards for the "dream deck-list" in real life, as the LotR was back then (not now, where the old boxes go for $20-$40), so $3.50 per booster pack. Some people were able to buy on average one booster-box per month, and that was a lot. Why should the time be any different online? Once again, for those who enjoy playing their "dreck deck-list" - they have the casual formats, where you basically play "with proxies" - having access to any cards.

I'm all up for rewarding activity and playing, but I challenge you to figure out a way that cannot be easily exploited. The system you have on GCCG is easy to exploit, just find a friend fire off a few games, concede in everyone of them after playing starting fellowship (or even before), and you both cash in the rewards. That's why I don't want to give out rewards just for playing in one-on-one games. Leagues at least require you to play against at least 10 different people each week. And yes, they do reward playing as well as winning, just take a look at the "Overall results" for the league. If people played all the games, even losing all of them, they'd have 40 points (1 point per game), this (currently) puts them on 22nd place, which is 25% of the overall players (84-ish).

It's incredibly difficult to create a fair free-to-play system, as you have to take into account many variables. One very important thing for me, is to make it very difficult (can't really make it impossible) to exploit. And if someone does exploit it, it should be easy to detect that player. This all comes down to - how to structure cash flow into the game and rewards, to reward good play and being active.

It's only fair to give everyone the same amount of cash while providing ways to spend it, which are available only through cash. All the ways you should be able to spend the cash, should be considered an investment - hence the tournament/league entry requiring cash (giving you chance to win product prizes), as well as merchant selling cards (getting you closer to being able to play the "dream deck-list" in tournaments).

Please, I know it's very easy to rant, and point out - what's wrong with a system, please instead try to provide constructive criticism - suggest how to solve the problems.

As for the "catchup time" for new players - with sealed leagues, there is no "catchup time". You have equal chance against other players because you play the same (in size) card pool.

I don't think there is one document that describes the MtGO economy, as it's more of a common knowledge, rather than rules laid down, but here is the official page:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnline.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/howdoi

[ramolnar]

As a former competitive player in the "ANY other deck" sense, let me add some comments.

I guess it's all up to the definition of the "competitive" word. For me it means "able to compete against other player on the field", for you it seems "able to compete against ANY other deck". My take on this is - as long as your opponents are similarly disadvantaged (trouble acquiring all the cards they'd want for their "dream deck-list"), it's all going to be fine.

Just think of a real world scenario and ask yourself a question - how long would it take you to collect all the cards for the "dream deck-list" in real life, as the LotR was back then (not now, where the old boxes go for $20-$40), so $3.50 per booster pack. Some people were able to buy on average one booster-box per month, and that was a lot. Why should the time be any different online? Once again, for those who enjoy playing their "dreck deck-list" - they have the casual formats, where you basically play "with proxies" - having access to any cards.

Only a couple months. I had two good FOTR decklists by January, when the cards came out in November. I had a decent amount of money back then, plus I had access to a wholesaler. On every release day, I would drive to the wholesaler and pick up my boxes at US$2 per pack. So did other "competitive" players.

There were other factors that helped poor players which don't exist here.
1) Free commons and uncommons. After rich players built playsets, the rest went to new players instead of the recycle bin. I used to carry Ulaire Enqueas to events - new players got one free. You should make the price for C/U very low.

Also, we need to be able to buy starters. If I'm going to play in this Super Sealed environment, which I'm not sure about, I want Aragorn KiE and the Moria set from the Gandalf fellowship starter.

2) Collectors. There was a foil collector who would trade for any foil he didn't have. Poor players knew they could get good cards for foils. Even a bad foil rare would mean a good rare in return. You should set the auto-trader to take foils at high prices.

People looking for a full set or playset would pay too much for cards to finish the set. Also, some of us developed "key bad rares". For example, I owned 120 Weight of a Legacy. Poor players knew that I collected them, so they could trade them to me for good rares. Someone else traded for Fool of a Took.
You should make the auto-trader have "bad rare specials". Say for three days only, Weight of a Legacy was worth a good rare like Boromir Lord of Gondor. Then it went back to 25 cents. Next week, have a three day special on Cruel Caradhras. This rewards people who check in frequently, what you want. It also helps improve game quality.

---- later edit
On a different subject, is there any way to get all our game results from the league?

[MarcinS]

Only a couple months. I had two good FOTR decklists by January, when the cards came out in November. I had a decent amount of money back then, plus I had access to a wholesaler. On every release day, I would drive to the wholesaler and pick up my boxes at US$2 per pack. So did other "competitive" players.

Well, I assume the same will happen here. You should be able to get decent FotR block deck in 2-3 months. And FotR block will be most likely the first constructed tournaments.

On a different subject, is there any way to get all our game results from the league?

What do you mean? Like, who you played against and who won?

[Felagund]

On every release day, I would drive to the wholesaler and pick up my boxes at US$2 per pack. So did other "competitive" players.

Well, I assume the same will happen here. You should be able to get decent FotR block deck in 2-3 months. And FotR block will be most likely the first constructed tournaments.

Except that competitive players would buy large amounts of boosters when a set first came out.  Some would buy 6 boxes of the larger sets and 2-3 of the smaller sets.  Personally, I bought 2-3 of the big sets and usually 1 box of the smaller sets; that wasn't sufficient on its own, but I had a lot of options for trading due to living in an area that had a large number of LOTR players.  I also tended to put together one, or maybe two decks at a time, so my card needs were modest.

At a rate of 3.5 boosters (or equivalent) per week, it would take about 10 weeks for me to get a box of boosters; that means about half a year to get what I started with for the big sets, and unlike when the sets were originally released, they aren't being spaced apart by one year per block.

If I am buying individual rares instead, that puts a lot of pressure on me to decide ahead of time what sort of deck I want to play in constructed tournaments.

If on the other hand you can liquidate your cards at will with the merchant and just buy other ones... then that means, once you have gotten a sufficient amount of funding, you should be able to afford pretty much whatever you want.  In this case the "collecting" aspect has been replaced with a "waiting period" when you just need to accrue more money, followed by a long period in which you can play whatever you want but have to waste a huge amount of time clicking on cards every time you want to switch decks.