Movement procedure

[MarcinS]

So, I need to have the movement procedure completely clear. It consists of following steps:
1. A Shadow player places the next site card, if needed.
2. Perform "When you move from..." actions.
3. Perform "When the fellowship moves..." actions.
4. Move your player marker to the next site.
5. Perform "When you move to..." actions.
6. Add twilight tokens equal to the new site's Shadow number.
7. Add 3 twilight tokens if the new site is in region 2; or 6 if it is in region 3.
8. Add 1 twilight token for each companion.

During each of those steps, I need to know the following things:
- what site (old/new/none) is the "fellowship at",
- what site (old/new/none) is the "current site",
- which sites have active texts,
- which region is the fellowship in.

Thanks!

[leokula]

Dude... I don't think I've ever seen such a detailed description of the movement action. I think common sense will be your best friend there

[hsiale]

Computers don't have common sense. So if someone wants to code movement procedure into software, detailed descriptions are needed so that everything works as intended

I think what we definitely want is that the fellowship is at some site all the time (so that MoM Balrogs don't get discarded when moving from one underground to another). Current site is always the same as the site fellowship is at (and it's the only one that has active text). Region depends on number of current site. So the only question is the moment current site changes - I guess that's not explained in the rulebook, I'd say it should be point 4.

One more thing: I think point 3 should not be there, all "when the fellowship moves" actions should be responses to player marker moving (and it would be really nice if the marker at Gemp-Lotr indeed was placed half at one site, half at the other). For the purposes of cards discarded when at a certain terrain type, I think all those things should be checked (and triggered if needed) during point 5.

[MarcinS]

Computers don't have common sense. So if someone wants to code movement procedure into software, detailed descriptions are needed so that everything works as intended

I think what we definitely want is that the fellowship is at some site all the time (so that MoM Balrogs don't get discarded when moving from one underground to another). Current site is always the same as the site fellowship is at (and it's the only one that has active text). Region depends on number of current site. So the only question is the moment current site changes - I guess that's not explained in the rulebook, I'd say it should be point 4.

One more thing: I think point 3 should not be there, all "when the fellowship moves" actions should be responses to player marker moving (and it would be really nice if the marker at Gemp-Lotr indeed was placed half at one site, half at the other). For the purposes of cards discarded when at a certain terrain type, I think all those things should be checked (and triggered if needed) during point 5.

But then, with the current text of Bill the Pony, it will not change the shadow number when moving to underground site, as it will be discarded in point 5, before point 6, when the shadow number is taken into account. So either we need to figure out a different way of dealing with the move, or change the Bill the Pony text, or accept that it will not give -1 shadow number to underground site.

[bibfortuna25]

Isn't the rule that the fellowship is not "at" the new site until all other movement actions have been completed?

Edit: Yep, I found this in the Comprehensive Rules:

"After you have completed any moving actions
and have added twilight tokens to the twilight
pool, the fellowship has moved to the new site
(and the game text there can be used)"

So this would mean that Bill the Pony does indeed subtract from the site's Shadow number before being discarded.

[MarcinS]

So this would mean that Bill the Pony does indeed subtract from the site's Shadow number before being discarded.

So until that point, the FP is at the previous site? Or something else, and if so, please answer the original question (first post in this thread).

The fact that rules say that "FP is not on the destination site, until after you add the twilight (last part of movement)", is completely against all the other rules. Especially the one that says, that site text is active only when FP is "at the site", that would essentially turn off all the "when moves to" from sites - for example City Gates, as fellowship is not on the destination site, when the "when moves to" effects are played out.

[Tbiesty]

Here's a summary for you:

<Fellowship or Regroup phase begins>
   ...
   ...
   Free Peoples player announces they are moving.

   ------------------------The fellowship is "at" the old site until this point.----------------------
   1) A Shadow player places the next site card, if needed.
   2) Perform "When you move from..." actions.
   3) Perform "When the fellowship moves..." actions.
   4) Move your player marker to the next site.
   5) Perform "When you move to..." actions.
   6) Add twilight tokens equal to the new site's Shadow number.
   7) Add 3 twilight tokens if the new site is in region 2; or 6 if it is in region 3.
   8) Add 1 twilight token for each companion.
   ------------------------The fellowship is "at" the new site from this point on.----------------------

<Fellowship or Regroup phase ends>

[leokula]

Computers don't have common sense.

ORLY?

I know dude, what I meant is there is not Decipher / rulebook stand on this level of detail, so it's a matter of finding out what makes more sense.

Here's a summary for you:

<Fellowship or Regroup phase begins>
   ...
   ...
   Free Peoples player announces they are moving.

   ------------------------The fellowship is "at" the old site until this point.----------------------
   1) A Shadow player places the next site card, if needed.
   2) Perform "When you move from..." actions.
   3) Perform "When the fellowship moves..." actions.
   4) Move your player marker to the next site.
   5) Perform "When you move to..." actions.
   6) Add twilight tokens equal to the new site's Shadow number.
   7) Add 3 twilight tokens if the new site is in region 2; or 6 if it is in region 3.
   8) Add 1 twilight token for each companion.
   ------------------------The fellowship is "at" the new site from this point on.----------------------

<Fellowship or Regroup phase ends>

And where is the fellowship in between being in the old site and the new site?

[Tbiesty]

And where is the fellowship in between being in the old site and the new site?

During that point in time, the fellowship is just not "at" any site, that's all.  I suppose you could say the fellowship is "between" the sites.

[hsiale]

This implies that The Balrog, Durin's Bane is discarded when the fellowship moves from one underground to another, and I think this definitely is not true.

[leokula]

This implies that The Balrog, Durin's Bane is discarded when the fellowship moves from one underground to another, and I think this definitely is not true.

That's a good point. I think the way to go is defining at what point the site changes, and that's it. A period in which the fellowship is at no site is a little odd IMO.

[MarcinS]

This implies that The Balrog, Durin's Bane is discarded when the fellowship moves from one underground to another, and I think this definitely is not true.

That's a good point. I think the way to go is defining at what point the site changes, and that's it. A period in which the fellowship is at no site is a little odd IMO.

That's why I think the best point is where, you actually move the player token (step 4), as it makes most sense. Then if we really want to make Bill the Pony decrement the shadow number of the underground site you move to, we just change the discarding text of Bill the Pony to something like: "Discard Bill the Pony when at an underground site, except in Fellowship or Regroup phase."

[Tbiesty]

I see a few options for how to finally rule this:

Option 1)
    -- The fellowship is "at" whichever site the site marker is on.

    Pros:  Simplest to explain; explains why "moves to..." text on the new site is active; the site marker and the
             site the fellowship is "at" is always the same
              
    Cons:  Because of the 2002 CRD ruling for Bill The Pony, this would either require the 2002 CRD ruling to be
              "overruled", or a clarification added to Bill The Pony (as MarcinS suggested).

Option 2a)
    -- The fellowship is "at" the previous site until all the twilight is added, then the fellowship is "at" the new site.

     Pros:  Seems consistent with the existing rulings; matches the 2002 CRD ruling for Bill The Pony

     Cons:  Not very straightforward since the site marker and the site the fellowship is "at" is not always the same;
               would require a clarification to explain why "moves to..." text on the new site is active.

Option 2b)
    -- The fellowship is only "at" the previous site until the fellowship starts moving, and the fellowship is only "at"
        the new site after all the twilight is added.

     Pros:  Matches the 2002 CRD ruling for Bill The Pony; the site marker and the site the fellowship is "at" is always
               the same.

     Cons:  Would require a clarification to explain why "moves from..." and "moves to..." text on the sites is active;
                would require a clarification to explain why The Balrog is not discarded while the fellowship is moving
                between underground sites.


Keep in mind that the rules for this game were written by human beings, who do not always think of every situation, and many times needed to clarify a rule or card after the fact.  Therefore, we still sometimes find rules that conflict with each other.

Let's decide how to resolve this situation.  After we do, I'll update the "Unofficial Rules Document" that I maintain, and life goes on...

[MarcinS]

I see a few options for how to finally rule this:

Option 1)
    -- The fellowship is "at" whichever site the site marker is on.

    Pros:  Simplest to explain; explains why "moves to..." text on the new site is active; the site marker and the
             site the fellowship is "at" is always the same
             
    Cons:  Because of the 2002 CRD ruling for Bill The Pony, this would either require the 2002 CRD ruling to be
              "overruled", or a clarification added to Bill The Pony (as MarcinS suggested).

Let's decide how to resolve this situation.  After we do, I'll update the "Unofficial Rules Document" that I maintain, and life goes on...

I'd vote for this one (number 1) - first of all, it's simple, and as "Occam's razor" suggest - simplest is usually the right one. As for Bill the Pony - I would just overrule it, as the new text seems extremely awkward, and it's just one card, is it REALLY necessary to work that way?

[Elessar's Socks]

The "When you move to..." text working anyway might just be one of those cracks in the rules, same as some stacked cards still having active (or at least usable) text.

Even "After you have completed any moving actions and have added twilight tokens to the twilight pool, the fellowship has moved to the new site (and the game text there can be used)" seems to contradict being able to use "When you move to..." site text, but I doubt that was the intention.

Anyway, I think Bill the Pony should work as before, and the fellowship shouldn't be at the new site until the point mentioned above, based on existing rules. Maybe make an exception for "When you move to..." text, or suspend text like the Balrog's "Discard... if not..." if there's a transition stage, etc.