Clarification on TLHH's Template Policy.

[TelTura]

It's been months since I've posted; I wanted to duck in and clarify something real quick:

I would like to encourage you to be creative in your dream card design without infringing on Decipher, New Line or Tolkien's copyrights, trademarks, intellectual property, and so on. The best way to do this is to keep your dream cards as text only and avoid quoting directly from the books or movies (in the case of lore, for example).

The official policy for these forums will be:

DO come up with creative, fun and unbroken card designs!
DO NOT upload or attach any card images to forum posts or PMs.
DO NOT embed any card image within a forum post or PM.
DO NOT distribute dream cards or templates using the forum.

You may link to images hosted yourself. In that case, you take full responsibility for the content. If you wish to make your own card images, I encourage you to create your own templates from scratch.

Please note, however, that dream cards should be written as text; altered card images are not allowed as they may violate the copyrights of New Line and/or Decipher.

I've been working on-again off-again on a standalone LotR-TCG program (similar to Gemp-LotR, but without the web) that would be powerful enough, besides playing the game in all its facets, to be kind of a streamlined card creation suite...the tools in place that would be used to code all the various current Decipher cards would be in prime condition to be producing "dream cards" or errata or what have you.  I would seek advice on what might be the way to do so that would be most acceptable to the admins of this site...I don't seek legal advice on what to do about NewLine/Decipher, but I would like this to be releasable in some form or another to the members of this forum, and I know it wouldn't be allowed should it somehow put the site itself in legal danger.  

So, I've thought about a few scenarios that could go into the design and thought I would run it past you all:

• Option 1: Release a tool that comes with Decipher's own leaked templates and fonts, generating cards from text.  This option is the most heavyhanded and the most explicitly forbidden by the above quoted forum rulings.
• Option 2: Release a tool that comes with fonts that are extremely close to the originals but released under the font equivalent of the GPL, and with templates that have been procured by carefully "washing" scanned card images, photoshopping all text and images into oblivion, leaving only the underlying design.  I see this as a middleground and potentially viable.
• Option 3: Release a tool that has the same fonts as option 2, but with technically brand-new templates--completely original artwork, but done to imitate the original card layouts and textures as close as humanely possible without actually clonebrushing.  They would be indistinguishable from the originals except when lain side by side.  This could work but would obviously require more work than option 2.
• Option 4: Release the tool with no templates whatsoever...but with built in support should users provide the correct image files at the correct dimensions in the correct folder.  This is the "emulator approach" that is used by various console emulators to avoid actually providing any game ROMs...hey, it's just a program that reads data, but provides none of that data itself.  It works well enough for them in a certainly more gray area than what we have here with Decipher
• Option 5: Release no tool but produce it; imbed the templates into the executable (if any indeed are there) and provide no plain image files whatsoever.  The game itself could be used to generate cards on-the-fly, but it would not be able to produce the blank template files. [Edit:] It would also be unable to produce custom card image files; it would display them in-game based on a text file provided by the user, but will not save a local copy of that card to the hard drive.
• Option 6: Actually stop wasting my time and go program something commercially viable that I could sell elsewhere, make millions, and retire to the Bahamas.

My chosen route, if it could be at all possible, would be option 2; it's a series of operations on scanned images on the paper equivalent of abandonware that is owned by a quickly defunct company, for no profit whatsoever.  I could easily shut down the operation should someone with a legal arm turn my way, but at the same time it would not be contributing to any loss of revenue or indeed counterfeiting.  

I could conceivably go with option 3 although it would take more work.  I would simply use the templates others have made with option 2 until I near release, and then swap all templates out with the brand-spanking-new ones.  The end result would be the same for hardly any legal gain, I would think. [Edit:] Option 5 is an essentially veiled version of option 2 and would be as equally satisfactory, I think.

Options 1 and 6 are daydreams anyhow; I have not been able to get Decipher's official templates, but not for sore lack of trying.  

So, I would humbly submit to the mods and admins of this site, admirably holding on to an excellent and worthwhile game while the original creators have abandoned it, and I will honor whatever direction I am advised in:  If I come a couple months down the road and provide a link to a program that includes a tool for generating cards based on user input, how would it be received, and under what circumstances could I spread the word about it on this forum, if I hosted it myself (or on a service under my own account)?

[FM]

Well, you put us in kind of a pinch. Our Admins are AWOL as far as I'm concerned, so we can't really speak in their name in such a subject, since it involves the site itself, hosting and all. I can, however, provide the legal aspects (I know you specifically said this was not the issue, but bear with me for a moment), and basically shortcut to tell you that, depending on the laws, the site could get into trouble even by letting you post a link to such a program and let it be instead of deleting it, as it would be considered accessory to a felony due to not being diligent in scrutinizing the contents of what is posted here (to give you another example, for instance, we are legally required to remove posts for adult websites with material involving children ASAP, even if our rules say that such posts are forbidden, we do not condone it in any way, and any such posts are not endorsed by the site, its owner or its member's  - that alone is not enough).
You could, on the other hand, host the program yourself, like you said, and simply ask for interested members to send you an e-mail (or Private Message, for that matter), and set up an e-mail group so you can tell about the progress so far, and once it's done, direct them, through e-mail as well, to the site where you hosted it, which would let you work with whatever option you wanted to.
I'm sorry I can't be of any more help, but as I said, with all Admins gone, it's kind of complicated...

Cheers.

[TelTura]

Thanks, it's appreciated.  I had half-expected a reply from Kralik or even Thranduil or ket_the_jet the day-of, but it seems this place has definitely quieted down since I last stomped around. I was about to post an edit for "Option 7: the last bastion of the lotr-tcg is mostly dead anyway and no one would be here to read it."

I suppose the underlying question is, why is such a tool forbidden to make new derivative works when we wholesale copy the entire released game cards on this site and emulate the gameplay on gccg and other programs?  People always throw around the word "copyright" but I would imagine that that would be more of an issue with the original cards than with original works that happen to emulate the originals in form and structure very closely. 

Thanks for the input, though.  The email-list is a good idea.

[Kralik]

I would lean towards option four, with the understanding that you are hosting the tool on your own site and take responsibility for it.

I suppose the underlying question is, why is such a tool forbidden to make new derivative works when we wholesale copy the entire released game cards on this site and emulate the gameplay on gccg and other programs?

When I first put up this site, it was because Decipher's original LotR site had just gone down the tubes. They used to have pictures of all their cards freely available on their own pages before they had financial problems and restructured. As it is, if their legal department ever asked me to shut down this site, I would do so. I have no wish to violate their rights or get caught up in any legal proceedings regarding a card game.

[TelTura]

Alright, I think I'll roll with option 4, then.  I totally understand not wanting legal battles; it's just it seems like this would be a low-profile, low priority place to sue, I would think.  Cheers.