Lets try this again: Pipeweed / Saruman deck help wanted

[Galdor420]

Hey Guys,

I'm gonna describe the kind of deck I'd like to play and you guys submit your best deck list you can think of that fits all of these criteria:

Fellowship Side:

* Gandalf Centric
* Pipeweed used for Burden, Wound and (optionally) twilight removal (bonus if u can get them doing more)
* No companions that cannot bear a pipe
* Lots of spells (to contribute to the Wizard feeling of the theme)
* some way to deal with minions (power, archery, whatever)
* Some sort of Grima defense (terrible and evil, great day great hour, etc)
* Ideally it uses conditions sparingly

Shadow Side:

* Saruman Centric (ideally I'd like to play him as many sites as possible)
* Lots of spells or iconic Saruman moves (traitor's voice, weather conditions / events, saruman's power etc)
* Saruman's gear (his staff, palantir, tower of orthanc etc)
* I vastly prefer Uruks to Orcs, but I wont rule them out completely (again, unless u can do all Saruman? :O)
* Condition removal is a must (ideally, this shadow is also light on conditions itself)
* Some focused way to attack the fellowship (discard, burdens, wounds, whatever - just have a theme)

Thanks in advance guys! Also, keep in mind I don't mind using x-list cards or any sites from sets 1-10 to make this work. Cheers!

[Zurcamos]

I know I said I'd be helpful when you stop being defensive and arguing.  That ain't gonna happen, so I guess I'll be the hero you need, but not the one you deserve right now.  I think the best place to start when considering a pipeweed deck is Alex Tennet's Worlds 2002 deck, "Union Jackweed."  Yes, it's a Fellowship Block deck, but I am confident it could be updated for Movie, with more of a focus on the wizards, if you so choose.

(http://www.decktech.net/lotr/decks/decks.php?deck=26287)

Frodo, Reluctant Adventurer
The One Ring, Isildur's Bane

The Prancing Pony
Trollshaw Forest
Council Courtyard
Hollin
The Bridge of Khazad-dum
Caras Galadhon
Anduin Confluence
Anduin Banks
Slopes of Amon Hen

Sam, Son of Hamfast (starting)
Legolas, Greenleaf (starting)
Aragorn, Heir to the White City
Gandalf, Friend of the Shirefolk x4
Boromir, Son of Denethor
Old Toby x4
Longbottom Leaf
Frodo's Pipe x2
Aragorn's Pipe x2
Gandalf's Pipe
Ranger's Sword x2
Flaming Brand x2
Aragorn's Bow x2
Betrayal of Isengard x2
Sleep Caradhras x2
Sting x2
Glamdring
Armor x2
Filibert Bolger, Wily Rascal

Saruman, Keeper of Isengard x4
Uruk Warrior x4
Uruk Captain x3
Uruk Ravager x4
Uruk Lieutenant x2
Troop of Uruk-hai x3
Orthanc Berserker
Lurtz, Servant of Isengard
Tower Assassin
Savagery to Match Their Numbers x4
Saruman's Ambition x4
Saruman's Power
Abandoning Reason for Madness x2

By the way, I'd have to search for it, because I don't have the list on hand (since, like you, I don't play cards after Movie Block), but there was a Shadows era deck with no minions other than Saruman, of Many Colours (with Radagast Deceived, Pallando Deceived, Alatar Deceived).  It had Saruman's Staff and Staff of Saruman (different names, so you could have up to four of each) and Men Will Fall.

Figured you'd think that's cool, even if it's a bit off-topic.  The staff and Men Will Fall are probably good ideas for a Saruman themed deck though.

[Galdor420]

Well if it isn't my new friend Batman troll here to contaminate another one of my threads. While I have yet to see a non-sarcastic/confrontational post from you in the movie board this one, at least, contains useful information burriend amoung that other crap. It's an interesting deck list to start from to be sure, but how would you adapt it to fit the above criteria?

Legolas cannot bear a pipe, so I'd be inclined to remove him from the deck if possible. Also, having both arragorn and Boromir seems excessive (not to mention theres only 1 unique gondor pipe), especially since there is only 1 copy of each (I see that prancing pony but without that theres no need to use the x-listed arragorn anyway which should make everyone happy). I question how essential flaming brands are to the deck but all those multiple copies of pipes seem to be a wise move. I would deffinately choose another frodo with his own signant to take advantage of his own pipe too (also another good reason to change sams aside from the fact hes x-listed and we no longer need him for prancing pony) unless you work in These Are My People somehow. I do not see the significance of Betrayal of Isengard in this deck though, and I have a feeling it would be lacking weed most of the time.

As for the shadow side, it's really quite basic and could use a complete overhaul to take advantage of being a movieblock deck as opposed to just a fellowship block one. It also focuses perhaps too much on the uruks for my taste and leaves out the saruman flavour of his spells and gear. I would be very interested to see how you would modify this deck to be more in line with the specs laid out in he OP. As for the shadows era deck you mentions your right, I do find that very neat. Too bad it's not in movie block

[sgtdraino]

For minion side, what about a bunch of cheap discarding/wounding Isengard Orcs, with four copies of the Saruman that repeatedly assigns the minion to a guy, making him exert to prevent it?

[Galdor420]

sgtdraino thats a great idea! I like the synergy there. How about a deck list?

[Zurcamos]

While I have yet to see a non-sarcastic/confrontational post from you in the movie board this one, at least, contains useful information burriend amoung that other crap.

Shrug.  If you see a post from me, try and picture a playful tone.  I am blunt and sarcastic, yes, but not meanspirited.

It's an interesting deck list to start from to be sure, but how would you adapt it to fit the above criteria?

I'll try and come up with some thoughts on that.  I never made a Movie Block deck with Mithrandir.  I, personally, feel that he is the ultimate Gandalf for a Gandalf fan.  Pipeweed is really good for healing too, so it MIGHT have some synergy...

Legolas cannot bear a pipe, so I'd be inclined to remove him from the deck if possible. Also, having both arragorn and Boromir seems excessive (not to mention theres only 1 unique gondor pipe), especially since there is only 1 copy of each (I see that prancing pony but without that theres no need to use the x-listed arragorn anyway which should make everyone happy). I question how essential flaming brands are to the deck but all those multiple copies of pipes seem to be a wise move. I would deffinately choose another frodo with his own signant to take advantage of his own pipe too (also another good reason to change sams aside from the fact hes x-listed and we no longer need him for prancing pony) unless you work in These Are My People somehow. I do not see the significance of Betrayal of Isengard in this deck though, and I have a feeling it would be lacking weed most of the time.

Greenleaf and Aragorn's Bow were incredibly powerful together in Fellowship, and they could be tossed into a lot of decks without much card commitment, which is why they're here.  They can still be decent in Two Towers, but in my opinion, you have to go all out with archery in Movie Block, or not at all; enduring is just too scary.  So, yes, I agree that neither should be in a Movie Block version.  The copy of Boromir was for if the huge burden bid didn't go well.  He could use Aragorn's Pipe or be a backup companion.  You only NEED three companions with the Frodo signet, unless you have a companion with more than 4 vitality, and I agree that Frodo is likely one of the better ones to have it.  Betrayal of Isengard was to protect against fairly specific situations in Fellowship Block.  Like you say, it's not needed here.

[neopium]

Once you come up with a working pipeweed, please post it, I'm interested :-)

[Zurcamos]

Okay, so let me preface by saying the following ideas are off the top of my head.  They are not playtested, nor do I think they are necessarily ready to do so; they are skeletons.  First idea, Mithrandir meets "Union Jackweed":

Frodo, Resolute Hobbit
The One Ring, The Ruling Ring

Gandalf, Mithrandir (starting)
Aragorn, King in Exile x4
Pippin, Guard of Minas Tirith x2
Merry, Friend to Sam x2
Gondorian Merchant
Glamdring x3
Ranger's Sword
Hobbit Sword x3
Aragorn's Pipe x2
Frodo's Pipe x2
The Gaffer's Pipe
Gandalf's Pipe
Old Toby x4
Longbottom Leaf
Intimidate x3

Um ... pros: Grima couldn't do jack against it, Pippin wouldn't immediately die, Gandalf is strength 12, damage +1, and Merry can pump him to 17.  Cons: lots.  Foremost in my mind: I really do like more pipeweed.  Galdor wanted more of a Gandy focus, and it's not really there.  Mithrandir and pipeweed require lots of card commitment.  Next idea, LESS Mithrandir meets Jackweed:

Frodo, Resolute Hobbit
The One Ring, The Ruling Ring

Aragorn, Wingfoot (starting)
Gandalf, Defender of the West x3
Pippin, Guard of Minas Tirith x2
Merry, Friend to Sam x2
Ranger's Sword
Hobbit Sword x3
Aragorn's Pipe x2
Frodo's Pipe x2
The Gaffer's Pipe
Gandalf's Pipe
Old Toby x4
Longbottom Leaf x4
There and Back Again x3

Well, I thought that if Mithrandir is a pain, go with Defender, since we have three hobbits anyway.  Result?  More consistency and weed, I think, but even less of a Gandy focus, less chance of anyone winning any skirmishes, and went from zero conditions to three.  A general feeling of yuck (even though Wingfoot is fun with Pippin and Merry in Pipeweed).

...And now for something completely different (we don't need no stinkin' hobbits?  I can haz Mithrandir?):

Gimli, Bearer of Grudges
The One Ring, Such a Weight to Carry (or The Binding Ring)

Gandalf, Mithrandir (starting)
Aragorn, Elessar Telcontar (or maybe back to King in Exile, if Gandy dies in playtesting) x4
Glamdring, Elven Blade x3
Gimli's Battle Axe
Hand Axe
Ring of Fury
Ranger's Sword x2
Gimli's Pipe x2
Aragorn's Pipe x2
Gandalf's Pipe x2
Old Toby x4
Longbottom Leaf x4
Intimidate x3

Hmm, Gimli can be a 12 strength, damage +3 and actually skirmish thanks to Gandalf's pipe annihilating burdens.  Gandy is back to the 12 strength, damage +1, and Aragorn would be an 11 strength, damage +1.  Only three companions means a hint of choke.  Zero conditions.  Chief Counselor is a problem if you don't immediately ditch the pipeweed, and what if you don't get Gandalf's Pipe or Aragorn's Pipe quickly enough? Does anyone even play him?  Dumbest idea ever?  Shrug, shrug.

Current feeling: not sure about a pipeweed Movie Block deck after all (not that I'm saying I've tried every concept or anything).  Though I'm feeling confident you can't have one with a Gandy focus, because both require huge real estate in card count.

[Gerontius]

http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,6966.0.html
I would say Mauddib's deck is probably the way to go, for freeps at least. It doesn't perfectly fit your requirements, but you could tweak it a bit.

[Galdor420]

@Gerontius: That deck looks a lot like a shire countryside deck that was my main deck during the movie years after helms deep which I will post in another thread later. It's awesome, but even better without weed.

@Zurcamos: Thanks for the decklists! Looks like you put alot of thought into it. The one I like most is the final one but in my opinion you are going about Mithrandir completly wrong. The only way to run him successfully is to give little to no #$&*@! about his safty lol. The card Sent Back makes him viable. I present to you: Mithrandir, Pipe Smoker!:

Gimli, Bearer of Grudges (starting)
The One Ring, Answer To All Riddles (starting)
Aragorn, Ranger of the North (starting)

Anduril, Flame of the West
Coat of Mail
Aragorn's Pipe x2
Gimli's Battle Axe, Trusted Weapon
Ring of Fury
Gimli's Pipe x2
Elrond, Lord of Rivendell
Bilbo, Retired Adventurer
The Gaffer's Pipe
Longbottom Leaf x4
Old Toby x4
Gandalf, Mithrandir x4
Gandalf's Pipe x4
Sent Back x2

Heres the idea: It's small (only 30 cards), and it cycles fast thanks to old toby and Elrond. Elrond also heals Bilbo each turn who in turn can bring at least 1 weed back into your deck when you have both. You are able to play Elrond because chances are you'll spot gandalf with 4 in the deck. Gandalf is so strong it's as if your playing Stormcrow with Glamdering each time you play him so the only posession he needs is his pipe. He needs 4 copies though, because we are expecting him to die often due to his game text. But thats ok, no one cares because sent back means we can just play him again in the fellowship or the regroup! Needs playtesting but the test draws look delisous  

[Zurcamos]

Gimli, Bearer of Grudges (starting)
The One Ring, Answer To All Riddles (starting)
Aragorn, Ranger of the North (starting)

Anduril, Flame of the West
Coat of Mail
Aragorn's Pipe x2
Gimli's Battle Axe, Trusted Weapon
Ring of Fury
Gimli's Pipe x2
Elrond, Lord of Rivendell
Bilbo, Retired Adventurer
The Gaffer's Pipe
Longbottom Leaf x4
Old Toby x4
Gandalf, Mithrandir x4
Gandalf's Pipe x4
Sent Back x2

I like having 30 cards.  A lot.  There are exceptions, but I feel very few situations require more than 30 for each side.

Let me know how it goes.  I think the deck would be fun to play, regardless of how often it wins.  As far as critique goes, the only thing that I'd say NEEDS changing is throwing in Aragorn, Heir of Elendil instead of RotN, unless you have a site (or card I missed) specifically needing a ranger.  I went back and forth on the version of Gimli's Battle Axe, and your version very well may fair better (again, I just hate those mofo enduring minions!).  You may want to test Elrond, Herald to Gil-galad, if you end up have trouble spotting Gandalf or need an extra boost in healing (companions or Bilbo twice).

[Galdor420]

Hey Zurcamos, I like the Aragorn and Elrond swaps, I'll try those instead. Thing is, I'm going on a week long cruise starting this weekend and I'm busy preping in the the mean time so I won't have a chance to play test this for at least 2 weeks. Does anyone else have the ability to play test in the mean time? Otherwise, we will all have to wait until then. Sorry.

[Zurcamos]

Does anyone else have the ability to play test in the mean time? Otherwise, we will all have to wait until then. Sorry.

Eh, no rush, no worries.  Enjoy your cruise and try it when you get back.  We'll still be here.

[neopium]

FYI, I tried a deck that was very close to the Mithrandir Pipe smoker described above, and I think you don't have enough companions...

Until Gandalf arrives, you are in survive mode, and you cannot double move much. Why not adding Legolas, Greenleaf and some Aragorn's bow? With Aragorn's pipe, you can heal both of them and go on killing minions before Gandalf comes to the rescue.

I still prefer Aragorn, Ranger of the North because in desperate cases, you can still make him defender +2 or +3...

Another weak point is that you give a lot of twilight. Alright, you don't pay much when moving because you don't have a lot of companions, but you are far from a choke (you need bilbo and the gaffer's pipe to reduce the number of twilight, but you only have one of each). So in my very short experience with the deck, you often end up with a lot of twilight and 2 or 3 companions to deal with the horde of minions you are facing.

That being said, I like the concept of the deck and I am pretty sure there are some changes that could make it more efficient

Kind regards

[Zurcamos]

FYI, I tried a deck that was very close to the Mithrandir Pipe smoker described above, and I think you don't have enough companions...

Until Gandalf arrives, you are in survive mode, and you cannot double move much. Why not adding Legolas, Greenleaf and some Aragorn's bow? With Aragorn's pipe, you can heal both of them and go on killing minions before Gandalf comes to the rescue.

I still prefer Aragorn, Ranger of the North because in desperate cases, you can still make him defender +2 or +3...

Another weak point is that you give a lot of twilight. Alright, you don't pay much when moving because you don't have a lot of companions, but you are far from a choke (you need bilbo and the gaffer's pipe to reduce the number of twilight, but you only have one of each). So in my very short experience with the deck, you often end up with a lot of twilight and 2 or 3 companions to deal with the horde of minions you are facing.

That being said, I like the concept of the deck and I am pretty sure there are some changes that could make it more efficient

Kind regards

Interesting!  Thanks for the comments, neopium.  I know that Galdor wasn't huge on Greenleaf / Aragorn's Bow, but combined with Gimli's Battle Axe, Trusted Weapon, adding lots of archery might be a good direction to go.  Then again, having Bilbo at all kind of defeats the idea of Gimli in the first place.  If it requires a hobbit, you might as well run Frodo.  All this leads me to this:

Frodo, Resolute Hobbit
The One Ring, The Ruling Ring

Legolas, Greenleaf (starting)
Faramir, Ithilien Ranger (starting)
Aragorn, Elessar Telcontar x3
Merry, Friend to Sam x3 (edit, previously Pippin, Guard of Minas Tirith)
Hobbit Sword x2
Gondorian Sword x2
Aragorn's Bow x2
Faramir's Bow x2
Aragorn's Pipe x2
Frodo's Pipe x2
The Gaffer's Pipe x2
Old Toby x4
Longbottom Leaf x4

Galdor, buddy, howzabout having two different decks: a pipeweed one and a Gandalf centered one?  I just don't see how both ideas can fit in one deck.

You only NEED three companions with the Frodo signet, unless you have a companion with more than 4 vitality

Whoops, definitely thought Frodo's Pipe said something different.  Derp.