My issues with Expanded Format

[sgtdraino]

And don't forget Easterling Pillager! As you know I get 9 guys out pretty fast, so Easterling Pillager can put 4 burdens on me every time he comes out. I've been corrupted more than once by a hybrid Corsair/Easterling deck that either got me before I could get GOTM out, or Maraudered GOTM and then nailed me with recurring Easterling Pillager.

I think maybe some people think corruption isn't as strong in Expanded because Twilight Nazgul are not as effective in Expanded as in other formats... but no, there are some very effective ways to do corruption... just not necessarily with Twilight Nazgul.

ETA: Just to give a good visual idea of the variety in Expanded Format, here's a breakdown of how often I encountered various strategies by culture, out of approximately 74 games so far:

 
-/////////9
 
-////////////12
 
-////////////////////20
 
-////4
 
-///////////11
 
-/////////////////17
 (Free Peoples)
-///3
 (Shadow)
-////4
 
-//2
 
-//////////////14
 
-/////////9
 
-/////////9
 
-///////7
 
-/////5
 
-////////8
 
-//////6
 
-////////8

These are all different decks, too. I did not count it if it was a deck and player that I had played before.

It's also important to note that often times a culture will have a number of different strategies that all center around that culture. For example, while is currently the most popular culture in Expanded Format, it is also the culture I have the most documented different strategies for (8 so far). Once you look at the breakdown of different strategies within the culture, you see there is variety within that culture.

Things seemed particularly balanced between the Shadow cultures, with being the one obvious frontrunner. Between the FP cultures, there are more clear favorites: and , followed by and , with not far behind them.

Based on the frequency of my encounters with them, these are the most popular strategies in Expanded Format, and how often I encounter them:

Free Peoples:
Hobbit Hospital 11%
Madril 8%
Archery 7%
Gil-galad Looping 5%
Three Hunters 5%
Condition Dwarfs 5%

Shadow:
Forest Nazgul 11%
Goblin Armory 8%
Uruk Hunters 7%
Demoralized Bomb: 5%
Skull Men Super Archery 5%

As you can see from the percentages, even with the most popular strategies, the chances of encountering any particular strategy are quite low. And there's ten strategies I haven't listed that each pop up about 4% of the time.

[dmaz]

Ok, regarding the hyper-corruption I've been a little more convinced, but mostly because of Easterling Pillager. A lot of Expanded decks like big fellowships and the pillager would just brutalize them. This card can and does add those 4 burdens at once, with the only prerequisite being the existence of lots of companions (fairly common).

The orc strategies are a little more avoidable once you see what they are doing, and Lingering Shadow with Dark Fell About Him is so situational, I could only HOPE that my opponent's shadow strategy is as swiss cheese as that

[sgtdraino]

The orc strategies are a little more avoidable once you see what they are doing,

Are they? Unless you manage to discard Goblin Hordes, or somehow get that Mountain-troll out of his hand, he's going to recur that event on you ad infinitum.

and Lingering Shadow with Dark Fell About Him is so situational, I could only HOPE that my opponent's shadow strategy is as swiss cheese as that

I dunno man, I could easily envision a / hybrid deck that uses Rapid Reload to exhaust whoever has the most vitality, then plays Enduring Nazgul which can heal themselves in Skirmish, to easily be able to exert twice in Regroup to add something like 8 burdens all at once! Heck, sounds pretty easy to me! Man, you could even recur it each turn with that nazgul that pulls an event back into your hand!

[dmaz]

Are they? Unless you manage to discard Goblin Hordes, or somehow get that Mountain-troll out of his hand, he's going to recur that event on you ad infinitum.

I guess I mean that once you understand your opponent's strategy, and it is based on something other than just eating wounds each site in archery, or resolving skirmishes, you can prepare to thwart it. Good fellowship site control or condition control will really cripple your opponent. These burdens are also conditional. I don't really find Bound to its Fate to be a very good card. If your opponent plays ANY kind of events the card just turns into: "Make your opponent discard a FP event of their choice"...whoopie!

I dunno man, I could easily envision a / hybrid deck that uses Rapid Reload to exhaust whoever has the most vitality, then plays Enduring Nazgul which can heal themselves in Skirmish, to easily be able to exert twice in Regroup to add something like 8 burdens all at once! Heck, sounds pretty easy to me! Man, you could even recur it each turn with that nazgul that pulls an event back into your hand!

Now THAT would be a sweet combo to see. My opinion on this one could be a little off I guess...

The reason I still see Easterling Pillager a step above the rest is that it punishes big fellowships, and when the big fellowship IS there, the burdens are guaranteed (unless they are playing Melilot Brandybuck or something)
Dark Fell About Him has way too many variables for me I guess... 1. you have a way of exhausting a companion with decent vitality. 2. Your Nazgul actually makes it through the skirmish with enough vitality to use the event. 3. You can play the event (Wise Guide). If they are playing 9 companions, Ent Horde for example, you need to get these three to work in conjunction, exhausting Ent Horde to get all 4 of the burdens out. If you are playing Beasterlings all you need is to spot another Easterling to do the same. Just my cost-benefit analysis

[Shelobplayer]

I dunno man, I could easily envision a / hybrid deck that uses Rapid Reload to exhaust whoever has the most vitality, then plays Enduring Nazgul which can heal themselves in Skirmish, to easily be able to exert twice in Regroup to add something like 8 burdens all at once! Heck, sounds pretty easy to me! Man, you could even recur it each turn with that nazgul that pulls an event back into your hand!

That's pretty much how I used Dark Fell About Him (plus Dark Horseman + Saruman, SOS). Throw in Throne of the Dark Lord and Mount Doom for easy -2 resist, Final Strike for protection.

[sgtdraino]

I dunno man, I could easily envision a / hybrid deck that uses Rapid Reload to exhaust whoever has the most vitality, then plays Enduring Nazgul which can heal themselves in Skirmish, to easily be able to exert twice in Regroup to add something like 8 burdens all at once! Heck, sounds pretty easy to me! Man, you could even recur it each turn with that nazgul that pulls an event back into your hand!

Well, I just tried a test of this, and couldn't ever pull it off. I think I made my Shadow too complicated though, not enough nazgul.

I don't really find Bound to its Fate to be a very good card. If your opponent plays ANY kind of events the card just turns into: "Make your opponent discard a FP event of their choice"...whoopie!

As always, it depends on what kind of deck you're facing. My deck only has a few events, and they're pretty important. If I discard them without using them, I'm in trouble. I sure don't want to get rid of OGTDA!

The reason I still see Easterling Pillager a step above the rest is that it punishes big fellowships, and when the big fellowship IS there, the burdens are guaranteed (unless they are playing Melilot Brandybuck or something)

And it's a much simpler combo to pull off. Plus you've still got other Easterling tricks that add burdens.

Dark Fell About Him has way too many variables for me I guess... 1. you have a way of exhausting a companion with decent vitality.

Not generally a problem with Rapid Reload and/or Mumak Commander, GATS.

2. Your Nazgul actually makes it through the skirmish with enough vitality to use the event.

With the Enduring guys, generally only a problem if he's both strong, and has damage bonuses. Otherwise they'll heal enough to exert in Regroup.

3. You can play the event (Wise Guide).

If they're playing with Wise Guide, that's who I'm hitting first with Rapid Reload. I've also been trying Grima, Servant of Another Master to both get an extra exertion on somebody, and disable Wise Guide if necessary.

No, the problem I ran into when I tested it (only once so far), was simply getting the right cards in hand. Also, ideally you want to get Lingering Shadow on an unbound guy with decent vitality, and the only way to do that is if that guy fights a Nazgul. That's where Between Nazgul and Prey comes in... but now I"m running into too many events and not enough minions. So there's definitely a balance necessary to pull off this strategy that I have not found yet.

If you are playing Beasterlings all you need is to spot another Easterling to do the same.

Exactly. Most of the time, simpler is more effective.

[Carl333]

I've never complained about GOTM, but then I've never played corruption in Expanded. Thus, I have yet to see a corruption strategy that actually justifies the raw power of GOTM, imo...

Challenge accepted.

[dmaz]

After looking through all of the cards again, I think I'm being a little overly critical of these corruption strategies.

Just because the Dark Fell About Him combo requires a little more preparation doesn't mean I should dismiss it completely. After all, inventing new potent and deadly combos, as well as developing a way to pull them off is one of the best aspects of this game!

Also @Carl333, looking forward to seeing your super corruption deck

[Panch]

So whats a good deck to use against shadow site manipulation ? Something with OGTDA or Well-traveled?

[Vordan]

both are good, and if the fp has some burned removal Get On and Get Away can be splashed by any fellowship, i'm surprised i don't see more of that (even if it's R-listed in expanded)

[ramolnar]

both are good, and if the fp has some burned removal Get On and Get Away can be splashed by any fellowship, i'm surprised i don't see more of that (even if it's R-listed in expanded)

Because a single copy restricted card is way too uncertain. I can't discard it from my opening hand, and I can't rely on it.

Also, a lot of site manipulation is back-side site manipulation. My FP can advance to any site I want, but then in shadow phase I get hit with Steward's Tomb or Pelennor Flat or Isengard Ruined or Cavern Entrance. Or in their FP phase they just switch the site underneath me. There's only one Mount Doom in my adventure deck - and to play that there are cheaper options like Thror's Map and Pathfinder.

[sgtdraino]

You might find a few ideas here:

http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,8278.0.html

Generally, while some players might not want to hear this, I've found that the most effective way to counter site manipulation, is by using site manipulation yourself. It's simply part of the Expanded meta, part of the general strategy of the format, so it's something you're going to have to plan for.

[Panch]

Thank you guys for replying! I really appreciate it

[simplegarak]

Something I'm curious about.

I can see the appeal of Rapid Reload, but I'm surprised more decks don't seem to rock Greed (a card I love to drop on decks that run a lot of threats).  What is it about the expanded meta that shuts it down?

[Shelobplayer]

Something I'm curious about.

I can see the appeal of Rapid Reload, but I'm surprised more decks don't seem to rock Greed (a card I love to drop on decks that run a lot of threats).  What is it about the expanded meta that shuts it down?

Greed is an amazing card indeed, the problem is that uruks in general are not. The best uruks are generally aggressively costed vanilla-ish fighters, and those are not great for expanded, because every better expanded deck has solutions for them. Generally you expect more from your minions in expanded than winning skirmishes, and that's where uruks excell. I can see some multiculture uruk deck doing alright in expanded, but honestly, the unupdated ban list is not really fair for them. Keeper of Isengard and Savagery to Match their Numbers wouldn't be overpowered in the format at all imo, but would make uruks competitive (still I doubt they'd be ahead of most well established shadow strategies).