What are some anti-Gollum strategies?

[MarcinS]

"For each" doesn't just apply to wounds or heals; it applies in every other similar situation in the game. Otherwise, Curse Their Foul Feet wouldn't work.

All rules do what they say, no more, no less.

When an effect wounds (or exerts or heals) characters using the phrase "for each," you may wound (or exert or heal) a character more than once.

[sgtdraino]

Siege Engine can protect multiple other machines from Sleep, but not from FNF.

I disagree. As soon as FNF is activated, you are about to discard X conditions, where X is the number of tokens on FNF. Siege Engine should prevent them all.

And if Siege Engine happened to be in the culture, it could protect them from Clever Hobbits.

I agree, because (like Clever Hobbits) there is no upper limit to the number of discardings it can prevent.

"For each" doesn't just apply to wounds or heals; it applies in every other similar situation in the game. Otherwise, Curse Their Foul Feet wouldn't work.

I believe the "for each" entry in CR also makes reference to Anduin Banks, so clearly it applies to more than just exerting, healing, and wounding.

[MarcinS]

"For each" doesn't just apply to wounds or heals; it applies in every other similar situation in the game. Otherwise, Curse Their Foul Feet wouldn't work.

I believe the "for each" entry in CR also makes reference to Anduin Banks, so clearly it applies to more than just exerting, healing, and wounding.

If I wanted to be literal, I can stretch the "for each" to effects that:
- exert/wound/heal,
- have "for each companion over X" in their text.

FNF matches neither of those criteria.

Also, when I referred to the "for each" rule, what I meant, is that you can't choose to discard the same card multiple times with FNF like effects, as you can do the same effect on the same card (due to "for each") only if the effect is healing, wounding or exerting.

[sgtdraino]

So, how is the Siege Engine working in this case? I'm FP player and I have an effect that says - "discard 3 shadow conditions".

If it's a single effect, then it's a single action. 3 of your conditions "is about to" be discarded, so IMO Siege Engine should prevent all 3. The way the card is worded prevents them all, because there is no upper limit, and all count as "is about to" actions.

Deceit, like Siege Engine, is also a response action that keys off "is about to" actions, but it does them one at a time with a cost involved. Each use of Deceit is a separate response action, and they only protect one card at a time, and only for that one part of the bigger action trying to discard it. I haven't seen anything yet that indicates the card is then protected from any further attempts to discard it occuring later in the same action.

Long time I highlighted that problem when I started working on Gemp-LotR, that rules are inconsistent in that point, and postulated (that's how it's done in Gemp-LotR) that whenever you do X things (except for exert/wound/heal "for each") you choose all the affected cards, then any "is about it" happen, then you proceed with the effect, unless the effect was prevented in whole, or you just prevented part of the effect, in that case only non-prevented affected cards had the effect done on them. This is both intuitive and at all possible to implement.

I think you have the right interpretation. The question with implementing Clever Hobbits, is whether upon playing the card, you start by selecting the number of Gollum conditions you want to discard, or whether you move directly to selecting the specific conditions you want to discard. The former would permit X to be higher than the number of conditions on the table, the latter would limit you to selecting only what's there. In my view, you should be able to choose "any number" to be X. I think that's what the rules support, and I also think that would bring a bit more balance to ninja gollum.

[Elessar's Socks]

The 8/9/2005 CRD has the Fortress Never Fallen entry:

"The effect of this condition's special ability when the card has more than one token is simultaneous. Several conditions are discarded at the same time. Siege Engine responds to these discards by preventing all of them.

You have three tokens on Fortress Never Fallen when you use its special ability. You select three Shadow conditions to be discarded (including my Siege Engine), and discard Fortress Never Fallen. I use the response special ability on Siege Engine, which technically saves all three conditions, but then I discard Siege Engine to pay its own cost."

Granted, maybe too much is riding on that entry, but I figure Clever Hobbits could likewise work as "I'll choose these conditions to discard, care to respond?" The selected conditions are all in the "about to be discarded" stage, so Deceit can respond as able to each one. Once responses are over, any conditions not protected will be discarded.

[sgtdraino]

The 8/9/2005 CRD has the Fortress Never Fallen entry:

Interesting, I wasn't aware until now that previous CRDs contain things the current one does not! Must download.

"The effect of this condition's special ability when the card has more than one token is simultaneous. Several conditions are discarded at the same time. Siege Engine responds to these discards by preventing all of them.

You have three tokens on Fortress Never Fallen when you use its special ability. You select three Shadow conditions to be discarded (including my Siege Engine), and discard Fortress Never Fallen. I use the response special ability on Siege Engine, which technically saves all three conditions, but then I discard Siege Engine to pay its own cost."

Makes sense. That was my interpretation as well.

Granted, maybe too much is riding on that entry, but I figure Clever Hobbits could likewise work as "I'll choose these conditions to discard, care to respond?" The selected conditions are all in the "about to be discarded" stage, so Deceit can respond as able to each one. Once responses are over, any conditions not protected will be discarded.

The issue is what happens after Deceit has done it's thing, but the original effect still dictates more conditions must be discarded.

For example, with the FNF example, suppose FNF has 5 tokens on it. The opponent only has 3 conditions: Two copies of Deceit, and one copy of Final Strike. There are 3 twilight in the twilight pool. FP activates FNF, which sets X at 5. SP uses Deceit three times, removes three twilight, and prevents his 3 conditions from being discarded. There is now no twilight left. But the effect of FNF mandates that 5 conditions be discarded, only 3 discards were prevented, and there are three conditions still on the table. So, in this case, does the SP now have to discard two of his conditions? Or are the last two discards ignored?

I think the answer to this question, will also give us our answer for Clever Hobbits.

[MarcinS]

For example, with the FNF example, suppose FNF has 5 tokens on it. The opponent only has 3 conditions: Two copies of Deceit, and one copy of Final Strike. There are 3 twilight in the twilight pool. FP activates FNF, which sets X at 5. SP uses Deceit three times, removes three twilight, and prevents his 3 conditions from being discarded. There is now no twilight left. But the effect of FNF mandates that 5 conditions be discarded, only 3 discards were prevented, and there are three conditions still on the table. So, in this case, does the SP now have to discard two of his conditions? Or are the last two discards ignored?

I think the answer to this question, will also give us our answer for Clever Hobbits.

I think it goes like this, you use the card, choose X=5, select 5 conditions (or as many you can if there is less) and say "I discard those", your opponent can then pay twilight to prevent the discard 3 times, thus essentially prevent any discard at all. You can't choose the same one multiple times.

[bibfortuna25]

"For each" doesn't just apply to wounds or heals; it applies in every other similar situation in the game. Otherwise, Curse Their Foul Feet wouldn't work.

All rules do what they say, no more, no less.

When an effect wounds (or exerts or heals) characters using the phrase "for each," you may wound (or exert or heal) a character more than once.

Gandalf FOTSF
curse their foul feet
Death to the strawheads

All of these cards use for each and don't reference heals or wounds.

[sgtdraino]

For example, with the FNF example, suppose FNF has 5 tokens on it. The opponent only has 3 conditions: Two copies of Deceit, and one copy of Final Strike. There are 3 twilight in the twilight pool. FP activates FNF, which sets X at 5. SP uses Deceit three times, removes three twilight, and prevents his 3 conditions from being discarded. There is now no twilight left. But the effect of FNF mandates that 5 conditions be discarded, only 3 discards were prevented, and there are three conditions still on the table. So, in this case, does the SP now have to discard two of his conditions? Or are the last two discards ignored?

I think the answer to this question, will also give us our answer for Clever Hobbits.

I think it goes like this, you use the card, choose X=5, select 5 conditions (or as many you can if there is less) and say "I discard those", your opponent can then pay twilight to prevent the discard 3 times, thus essentially prevent any discard at all. You can't choose the same one multiple times.

If that is the case, I think it also applies to Clever Hobbits. However, I still have yet to see something from a CRD or CR that confirms this to be how it works. To my mind, the CR states that the effect must be carried out to the fullest extent possible. Furthermore, the effect of discarding conditions constitutes a single action, lotr does not break that action down into any sub-phases of targeting and then discarding. The only thing breaking up this single action would be response actions, and then the original effect action continues, to the fullest extent possible.

[bibfortuna25]

Further to the "for each" discussion above, the purpose of that ruling is to illustrate that Wingfoot can wound the same minion more than once, if you choose. So the same logic can be applied to FNF, since that old ruling is no longer in the CRD.

[bibfortuna25]

Also, since Clever Hobbits has discarding the conditions as a cost of its action, it doesn't fall under the "do as much as you can and ignore the rest" clause.

[Haszor]

Easy way to solve this, replicate the situation on Gemp, then see what it lets you do

[bibfortuna25]

I haven't played the card on Gemp yet, but I can imagine when you use it, you will select each card you want to discard. Then Deceit can respond to each one individually, if applicable.

[sgtdraino]

Further to the "for each" discussion above, the purpose of that ruling is to illustrate that Wingfoot can wound the same minion more than once, if you choose. So the same logic can be applied to FNF, since that old ruling is no longer in the CRD.

Just because the ruling doesn't appear in the most recent CRD, I don't think that means we can ignore it. It's the only official ruling we have on the matter, and it was never reversed. Plus, other official rules which are still in effect (such as the Movie Block X-list) appear in older CRDs but not the most recent one. So, just because it isn't in the latest CRD, doesn't mean it's no longer in effect.

And if you're drawing a Wingfoot comparison with "for each" actions, Clever Hobbits is also a "for each" action, which would seem to indicate the card can attempt to discard the same condition more than once.

Also, since Clever Hobbits has discarding the conditions as a cost of its action, it doesn't fall under the "do as much as you can and ignore the rest" clause.

I was about to say you have a brilliant point there... but then I saw this under "costs" in CR:

If a player is paying costs for a card and a
response action occurs which modifies those
costs, that player must continue to pay as many
costs as he can, even if it is no longer possible to
pay them all.

Easy way to solve this, replicate the situation on Gemp, then see what it lets you do

Ha! I am quite certain Haszor is being facetious. Gemp does whatever MarcinS tells it to.

ETA: I'm looking though the CR and the various CRDs to see if any other related rulings may shed some light on this. Here's one that is interesting to me (from CR):

PLUNDERED ARMORIES  1 C 193
If a minion bearing a ? weapon is discarded
due to losing a skirmish, Plundered Armories
takes effect before optional actions triggered by
winning/losing that skirmish occur.
When an effect discards "all" minions (thereby
discarding their weapons), they are discarded
at the same time. None of those minions may
have weapons played on them with Plundered
Armories.

It seems like a comparison could be drawn to cards that discard "all" conditions, or "all" shadow conditions (such as Deep in Thought, Saruman's Power, etc.).

Here is the aforementioned ruling on FNF:

FORTRESS NEVER FALLEN  4 U 276
The effect of this condition's special ability
when the card has more than one token is
simultaneous. Several conditions are discarded
at the same time. Siege Engine responds to these
discards by preventing all of them.
You have three tokens on Fortress Never Fallen
when you use its special ability. You select three
Shadow conditions to be discarded (including my
Siege Engine), and discard Fortress Never Fallen.
I use the response special ability on Siege Engine,
which technically saves all three conditions, but
then I discard Siege Engine to pay its own cost.

[MarcinS]

It's easy the "if for each is in text, each of the actions is a separate one" applies only to exert/heal and wound - as the rule states.

The second paragraph of "for each" applies to static abilities, as in example - adding Archery, as it's not an action, just as Galadriel, Bearer of Wisdom "for each" is not an action.