Additional Gemp-Lotr server for exploring format updates

[Tbiesty]

Greetings!

With the population on Gemp-Lotr server at http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/ continuing to grow, I've spoken with Marcin about setting up a 2nd server strictly for the purpose of allowing players to try out new/updated formats. By doing this on a seperate server, players that have no interest in exploring "unofficial" format updates won't be bothered by it; it also avoids confusing new players who have never played on Gemp-Lotr before.

The premise is that the existing formats, as "officially" defined, leave room for improvement. So by exploring new formats, or updates to existing formats, let's see what we can do to eliminate NPEs and make gameplay a better experience.

Examples of things that can be explored:
1) Galadriel, LR
2) Erkenbrand's Horn / New Chapter
3) Namarie
4) Rapid Reload / Demoralized
5) Ulaire Nelya, TotNR
6) "Other NPEs based on player suggestions" (Feel free to provide others that you can think of, thanks!)

This additional server can be found at:  http://tlbiesterfeld.servehttp.com/gemp-lotr/

To start out, updated versions of the following formats are available to try out:

1) Fellowship block (sets 1-3)
2) Towers block (sets 4-6)
3) Towers standard (sets 1-6)
4) King block (sets 7, 8, 10)
5) King standard (sets 1-8, 10)
6) Movie block (sets 1-10)
7) War of the Ring block (11-14)
8) War of the Ring standard (sets 4-14)
9) Hunters block (sets 4-14)
10) Standard (sets 7-19)
11) Expanded/Open (sets 1-19)

Other formats can be added.  Let me know of others you are interested in.

An important thing that I want to make sure is restored as part of this effort is the notion of "No card left behind."  Since enforcement of the rules is taken care of by Gemp-Lotr, implementing minimal errata to allow this is now possible. The initial version of the updated formats includes these updates:

Elrond, Lord of Rivendell: Exert twice to draw a card.
Galadriel, Lady of Light: Exert to play Elf ally at twilight cost -2.
Ottar, Man of Laketown: Exert and discard a card to draw a card.
No Stranger to the Shadows: Unique.
Savagery to Match Their Numbers: Twilight cost 2.
Relics of Moria: (limit once per phase)
Ulaire Nertea, Messenger of Dol Guldur: …if you can spot another Nazgul...
Forces of Mordor: Spot X roaming minions to add (X) (limit (3)).
Sam, Son of Hamfast: Exert twice to remove burden.
Sting: Exert to reveal 2 cards from hand.
Flaming Brand: Bearer must be Man. Bonuses only if bearer is Aragorn.
Filibert Bolger: Exert Filibert Bolger and…
O Elbereth Gilthoniel: If bearer is wearing The One Ring, …
Gimli, DotMR: Only affects Shadow number of underground Fellowship block sites. (clarification)
Galadriel, LotGW: Only plays forest sites if they are Fellowship block sites. (clarification)
Aragorn, Heir to the White City: ...you may exert Aragorn to remove (2).
Horn of Boromir: Discard to use.
The Palantir of Orthanc: Remove (3) instead of (1).
Saruman, Keeper of Isengard: While you can spot 6 companions, Uruk-hai are fierce.
Bill the Pony: Bearer must be Sam.
Frying Pan: If bearer is Sam, exert him to wound a Orc he is skirmishing.
The Shire Countryside: Unique.
Legolas, Dauntless Hunter: (limit +2)
Uruk Regular: Unique.
Steadfast Champion: At the start of the regroup phase…
Aggression: Unique. Spot a Dwarf and discard this condition to draw a card.
Memories of Darkness: Does not play condition from discard pile.
Galadriel, LR: To play, spot 3 Elves.  Fellowship: Exert Galadriel and …
Fell Deeds Awake: (limit once per phase)
Mordor Fiend: (limit once per phase)
A Light In His Mind: (limit once per phase)
Base of Mindolluin: (limit 2)
Final Account: Opponent chooses which 1 of the 2 you take into hand.
Strange-looking Men: At the start of the maneuver phase...
Demoralized: Unique.
Orkish Smith: ...may shuffle an condition from discard pile into your draw deck.
Ulaire Nelya, TotNR: Only replaces opponent's sites.
Madril, DoO: ...exert to a make a minion site number +1 for each threat...
Namarie: Unique. Maneuver: ...discard a Shadow condition for each token here. Discard this condition.
Erkenbrand's Horn: (limit 1)


If you decide to give this a try, please provide feedback here about how the gameplay improved/worsened from a particular format change, and include replay links for specific examples. As needed, the formats will be adjusted based on this feedback, and the cycle will continue.

Thanks!

[jcb213]

Can you post a full list of the errata you have implemented so that people don't have to look up every single card to see the changes?

[Tbiesty]

Can you post a full list of the errata you have implemented so that people don't have to look up every single card to see the changes?

Thanks for the suggestion! The initial post has been updated.  

[Cw0rk]

I hope this is just for testing and not a full server.

Otherwise that would REALLY be splitting the community apart.

I don't think including new formats splits the community, but having two servers definitely does.

[Ringbearer]

Especially since the errata is the work of a small group, not the masses (not to burn you down tbiesty, but some people just dont like altering the official format).

[MADG0BLIN]

Why not the same server, different formats?
For example:
Movie
Movie - Changed Rules

That way you keep all the players on one server.

[janjetina]

One does not simply introduce new formats.

Anyway, I welcome an attempt to introduce more balanced custom formats. However, a server split and the resulting community split is not a good thing. Custom formats, if available, should be hosted on the same server. Players who are not interested in unofficial formats can just disregard them (as I disregard formats like pre-Shadows multipath and any format that includes Treachery and Disease Deceit, the edition that never saw the light of quality assurance. One should also give new players more credit, catching up with the formats, given that there are links to texts that explain them require nothing past basic literacy.

As for the idea of introducing new formats, the first sentence of my post still applies. We should tread very lightly. Here are guiding principles that should be observed, listed by the order of priority.

1. Decipher's formats should be a starting point. That is, Decipher's X-list and R-list should be observed.

2. Changes should be made gradually and iteratively. Only one or two changes should be made at the time, followed by extensive playtesting.

3. Given (1) and (2), there are a few suggestions that, in my opinion, should be prioritised:

a) War of the Ring Expanded format

This was an official Decipher format before The Hunters came out. Eliminating the editions that never went through Q&A (Treachery and Disease) solves many problems with the current Expanded format. Since there is a War of the Ring Standard Format, there should be War of the ring Expanded format as well (and I would even consider it 'official', in the same way that Movie format and War of the Ring standard are official).

b) Custom movie format.
Starting point: Movie format.
Proposed changes: implement the next official version of the Expanded X-list and R-list (Shadows Expanded X-list and R-list), with the exception of the site manipulation cards, which do not affect movie format.
Consequences: Galadriel LR and Legolas DH are X-listed. Certain cards (Savagery, Elrond, ...) are R-listed instead of X-listed.

c) Custom Standard and Expanded formats
Scrap the poorly playtested editions (including at least T&D and Age's End).

4. Once new formats are in place and stable, further custom changes to the X-list and the R-list of those custom formats could be discussed. That includes possible errata (however, I think that the cards that are even on the Open R-list and the whole T&D and Age's End should just be scrapped). We should be extremely conservative when considering those changes and use an iterative process.

That addresses most of the examples in the original post, with exception of Nelya. On that topic, brute force X-listing Nelya would not solve the problem (I would probably switch to Underground site manipulation with Gandalf and Traveled Leader instead of hobbits). Site manipulation mechanics, by both FP and Shadow, should be carefully analysed in its entirety and possibly adjusted. However, I consider that a much lower priority than the changes mentioned in the point 3, which would take quite a long time to be tested.





 

[Tbiesty]

I hope this is just for testing and not a full server.

Yep, this is a "test" server just for testing out format updates. There's no merchant, no leagues, no tournaments; just build decks and play casual games in the formats available (then provide feedback). With enough participation, if a updated format is well-received, then perhaps it could be added to the "real" Gemp-Lotr server for all to enjoy.

I'm sure everyone has a different suggestion to use as a starting point, but until someone actually put in the time to put these theories into action, we won't really learn anything. So here we are, I'm giving this a try to gather as much concrete playtesting data as possible.

Like I mentioned before, we'll just focus first on sets 1-10, then work on other formats, such as War of the Ring Expanded, Expanded, Standard, etc. that include later sets, since those present more hurdles.

If you'd like to participate, great!  If not, no hard feelings.

Thanks!

[sgtdraino]

This sounds like a great idea, though like others I'd eventually prefer to see everything on the same server.

I suggest you get Expanded up and running asap, as it is one of the three most popular formats.

I suggest a larger committee be implemented to consider what cards need errata, and what that errata should be. In general, I don't like the idea of errataing cards, and the sizable list you've already put forward gives me pause.

As to the Gamling/Horn/New Chapter combo, someone else suggested that the issue would be resolved simply by X-ing New Chapter. I agree, and I don't see that card used for much else other than that particular combo.

As to site manipulation, I heard someone suggest a rule that you cannot replace your own sites. I like that, I think it would solve most of the problems. Should at least be tried out.

[Arcanite]

Saruman's power is waaaaay too strong too. deimate an entire fellowship? until scouring of the shire, this card made hobbits almost unplayable.

[Ringbearer]

Saruman's power is waaaaay too strong too. deimate an entire fellowship? until scouring of the shire, this card made hobbits almost unplayable.

Hmm, thats the reason I dont like errata proposals. People always have their pet hate card and want it altered/banned. If we follow that we can just stop playing.

[Cw0rk]

Saruman's power is waaaaay too strong too. deimate an entire fellowship? until scouring of the shire, this card made hobbits almost unplayable.

Hmm, thats the reason I dont like errata proposals. People always have their pet hate card and want it altered/banned. If we follow that we can just stop playing.

Yeah. The best thing, which has already be mentioned several times, would be a function that allows you to add a text next to the game you created. e.g. NO GALADRIEL LR Then the haters would be happy.

[sgtdraino]

Saruman's power is waaaaay too strong too. deimate an entire fellowship? until scouring of the shire, this card made hobbits almost unplayable.

And after Scouring of the Shire, Hobbits are nearly unstoppable unless you can draw multiple copies of Saruman's Power.

Saruman's Power is from the very first set of all. Did people stop using condition-dependent decks afterwards, because Saruman's Power was too strong? Nope. On the contrary, people still use condition-dependent decks.

Hmm, thats the reason I dont like errata proposals. People always have their pet hate card and want it altered/banned. If we follow that we can just stop playing.

Agreed. I think we got off on the wrong foot with this new server, with that list of 30 cards already that he wants to errata. Errata should be the option of last resort, used only when there is absolutely no other way... and there almost always is.

[Tbiesty]

Sorry I haven't been around the last few weeks, but my wife and I just had our first baby around New Year's, so I haven't been online much lately.  I'll work on adding in other formats as soon as I can.

One thing I want to mention each of the errata are based on cards/combos/loops that are banned/restricted in various formats already, so there already are specific known "problems" with those cards that can be dealt with while still allowing "flavor" of the original to remain playable.

Thanks!

[Cw0rk]

Sorry I haven't been around the last few weeks, but my wife and I just had our first baby around New Year's, so I haven't been online much lately. 

Congratulations to both of you!