Gemp Merchant Market Watch: High Prices or Out of Stock

[Cthulhu]

It does no such thing, it only dampens the effectiveness. The exploit, by my understanding, was to use dummy accounts to buy a bunch of copies of a single card that your normal account already has, to drive up the price to an insane level. You then sell the card back from your regular account and make a heap of gold. The large spread now makes it so you can't make as much gold at a time as you previously could, but it does nothing to "close the loop." For those who want to exploit the system, it just takes a little longer. The only way to truly fix the problem, is to either cap prices, or have the merchant stop selling singles. So far, neither of these measures have been implemented. Consequently, we have absurd prices, and we have this thread.

No, that was just one of the exploits, and its the only one that exists post reset. The main one, that started the whole crazyness,  was for infinite gold from just 1 account (no multiple accounts needed, everyone could make billions just by buying stupid amounts of a card, and then selling them back, because of the way the price system worked - surprised that it took so long for someone to figure it out actually), which is no longer possible thanks to the large spread, and then there was the one i talked about, which was more like a side effect of the price system, where you couldnt go infinite, just make large amounts (and thats it if you're lucky) while slowing the whole site. That one too is impossible now because of the large spread. So in other words, 2 of the 3 exploits got fixed, and the left can be done with the thicket idea.

I don't see how Grond's ticket idea would stop the multiple account shenanigans.

Then you have to read it more carefully. When new accounts start with 0 gold, and get 0 gold every monday,and have to fulfill some other play/time conditions to get some, the whole thing will be much harder to do than now.

[Grond]

If you want to play cards do it, nobody stops you. But MANY of us, more than you can imagine are here to play indeed "merchant game", and "my cards" games. You can play with all cards, that's why they are there. Thats why there are Single Elimination tourneys for everyone with ALL CARDS. Age's End Rare collection is in the market as well. The exploit WAS not what you are thinking of. The exploit was not connected to multi-accounting in any possible way. And nobody is buying cards just to screw others. And you can't buy 500 copies of a card to make the cost 2000000 because you don't have so much gold.

That's why there are 2 different type of gaming on GEMP. For the ones who like the "merchant game", we have this option. If you want to "play cards" nobody is stopping you. You wanted expanded daily - you have it, but don't try to influence the game the rest of us is playing.

[sgtdraino]

No, that was just one of the exploits, and its the only one that exists post reset.

...And? It sounds to me like the problem is only half-fixed. An exploit still exists, but now you have a situation where prices can still go sky-high, but thanks to the wide spread, players are less inclined to bother selling cards back to the merchant. Unless of course they're specifically trying to game the system via the exploit that still exists.

When new accounts start with 0 gold, and get 0 gold every monday,and have to fulfill some other play/time conditions to get some, the whole thing will be much harder to do than now.

Obviously not giving new accounts any gold will make it so you can't exploit the market that way. Not sure what that has to do with tickets, or thickets, or whatever. But frankly, I don't really care. I never gamed the system, I have no interest in gaming the system. That's why I have almost no gold and very few cards in my collection, especially ones that I particularly want, because they have absurd prices. It will take me forever to be able to afford even a few of them, and then of course there is no gold left for anything else. Because it takes very little time for most of us to be priced out of the market, due to how quickly a few purchases can make the price of a card rise.

Okay Grond, okay Cthulhu, I get that the two of you are happy with the market as it is. I get that you don't think there's anything wrong with a Mauhur fixed card costing 711g... oh wait! Now he's up to 793g! Great! But you're fine with that. Okay then, why are you in this thread? This thread is for identifying what players believe are absurd prices for certain cards, and either getting MarcinS to correct the problem, or (hopefully) encouraging someone to sell some copies of that card back to the Merchant to bring prices back down. Of course, good luck with that, since the wide spread is not much encouragement to sell. "Fixing" one problem has created another.

But unless you're here to report some prices you think are ridiculous, or you're here to find out what you can sell back to the Merchant to make things better, you are not helping. We don't need apologists for the Gemp Merchant, we don't need a couple of guys telling us that 700g for fixed cards is perfectly reasonable. If you think that's reasonable, well then good for you... there's no reason for you to be posting here.

If you want to play cards do it, nobody stops you.

And I do. But I would also like to play more competitively in Expanded format. Tournaments and Leagues. Expanded Format leagues are few and far between, the only Daily Expanded tournament is "My Cards." I'm okay with that, but it means that I have to deal with the Merchant.

But MANY of us, more than you can imagine are here to play indeed "merchant game", and "my cards" games.

I don't have to imagine, I can look at the statistics. We all can. I'd like to play "My Cards" games too, in my preferred format. But I feel the current Merchant system is making that more difficult than in should, due to absurd prices.

Thats why there are Single Elimination tourneys for everyone with ALL CARDS.

The single-elimination tournaments are a joke. I almost never see anybody using that feature for any format, because it is extremely difficult to get 8 people to commit the time necessarily for a tournament, without any prior notice. The tournaments only work when there is advance notice of when they will be. Here again, as other players have noted, Expanded seems to be getting the shaft, being scheduled at the same time as the Movie dailies.

Age's End Rare collection is in the market as well.

I just checked again. I don't see it. And those cards aren't rare, btw.

That's why there are 2 different type of gaming on GEMP. For the ones who like the "merchant game", we have this option. If you want to "play cards" nobody is stopping you. You wanted expanded daily - you have it, but don't try to influence the game the rest of us is playing.

Is that so? Perhaps you'd like to take another look at this then:

http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,8467.0.html

57 people, and 73% of them either wanted fixed prices, or wanted the Merchant to stop selling singles.

So maybe the "merchant game" isn't as popular as you think it is?

[Grond]

This poll was posted very soon (on the day) of the reset, so people were highly influenced by that. 99% of the people didn't even knew that there are changes to the merchant after the reset. About the selling, I am one of the guys with most cards right now, due to many daily and league wins and I can guarantee you, we DO sell the cards we are not playing in decks. There isn't anyone who thinks he doesn't need to sell cards and got everything. If you don't want to be forced into playing non-complete decks, then don't play my cards tournaments. More than 90% of the people playing on dailies are not with completed decks are playing something they find available for their resource range. That is the whole idea - to actually "collect" the deck card by card and play with weaker versions of your final deck. Sorry if it's not like real life, where you can spend 600 dollars on the last World Cup winning deck. And I don't think I am not allowed to write in a topic with this label, when I don't agree with it's statement. About the fixed cards, I totally agree with you, that this should be fixed as soon as possible, because it actually removes many important cards from the format, where they should be in!

[Grond]

And what is the first thing in the merchant when you switch to packs?


And right now :
Pippin, WoBaS - 65 gold
Hides - 41
Still absurd for ya? Or you want to post the cards that currently are at high price, because someone just bought them ?

[Cthulhu]

Obviously not giving new accounts any gold will make it so you can't exploit the market that way. Not sure what that has to do with tickets, or thickets, or whatever. But frankly, I don't really care.

Yeah, obviously you didnt care to read his idea, before claiming it wouldnt help, as said changes are part of what he suggested.

I get that you don't think there's anything wrong with a Mauhur fixed card costing 711g... oh wait! Now he's up to 793g! Great! But you're fine with that.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I just said its price isnt surprising, given that the starters are not for sale and the cards are therefore very, very rare, and then i said it would make sense for the starters to be added by MarcinS if their content is known.

I never gamed the system, I have no interest in gaming the system. That's why I have almost no gold and very few cards in my collection

No, I would say its because you never play in Dailys and such. We ALL started with starters or starter-like decks after the reset, you would be surpriced to see how much playing in Dailys and Leagues  helps with that. One could always start with some cheap deck, there are plenty that don't cost that much like hobbit hospital/isen orcs. Oh, you don't want to wait, to COLLECT the cards? Thats what are All Cards for.

[Legion]

Why all the bother?  The merchant was reset not long ago, and people are complaining that they haven't yet completed their collections!  People start off with none of the good cards and the sell prices start off much lower than the buy prices, so there's no reason to sell your cards now.  But if you wait for a couple of weeks, your collection will start to grow a bit (especially if you play the leagues) and you'll notice that the sell prices have increased due to demand increasing.  Then it might be worth your while to sell that Goblin Armory you're not using to buy the Aragorn's Bow that really helps your deck.  This will bring the buy prices down to reach a stable equilibrium, but just give it time!

However, I do agree that the Promos (and also Fixed Hunters block cards) are a massive flaw in the merchant.  Whilst it is possible to get every other card elsewhere, there is no reason whatsoever to sell your promos.  Their values go up ~10% each week, more if someone decides to buy one, never going down in value.  These can never reach an equilibrium and so when you do win a league and happen to get an Anarion, or open a Hunters booster and get a foil City Gates, you know that if you hang on to it, you could have all the cards you could ever need (and with it generating interest if you choose not to sell).  Why was the decision taken to take them out of the prizes from your league wins (instead of always getting a normally useless Foil Common/Uncommon)?  After winning 10/10 in Serie 3 of the revised movie block, I had hoped to do slightly better than a single copy of The World Ahead.  Taking the promos out of circulation will cause inflation once their prices get ridiculous and a couple of people get very lucky.  Then that will spread to the other cards.  This is more of a concern about prizes rather than the way the merchant works, though.

[sgtdraino]

This poll was posted very soon (on the day) of the reset, so people were highly influenced by that.

The fact remains that an actual majority of respondents wanted certain changes that were not implemented, changes which would have effectively ended the "merchant game." So, unless you've got other data that says otherwise, it seems like most players don't like it.

About the selling, I am one of the guys with most cards right now, due to many daily and league wins and I can guarantee you, we DO sell the cards we are not playing in decks.

Well now, this is an interesting point: The prices aren't dictated by "we the players," the prices are dictated by the few players who have lots of cards. The resources to buy and sell. People like yourself, in fact. You are the rich guy visiting the slums and telling all us poor folks that the system works fine.

But then again, this thread is meant for you. Go see what cards are absurdly high, and sell those back to the merchant. Thank you.

If you don't want to be forced into playing non-complete decks, then don't play my cards tournaments.

Dude, this isn't about playing "non-complete decks" (whatever that means), it's about reporting cards that have absurdly high prices, and hopefully correcting that problem. "If you don't like it, don't play," just sounds snotty to me. Please don't try to make this about something it's not. If this were simply because I couldn't build a deck exactly the way I want it, I wouldn't be advocating that the merchant do away with singles altogether, would I?

And I don't think I am not allowed to write in a topic with this label, when I don't agree with it's statement.

<shrug> Write whatever you want! I just don't get why you would want to hang out in the "absurd prices" thread, to try and argue that 700g for a fixed is reasonable. Or even that 700g for a rare is reasonable. Okay, you have lots of cards, and 700g isn't so much to you. So noted. Now... why should any of us care what you think about that?

About the fixed cards, I totally agree with you, that this should be fixed as soon as possible, because it actually removes many important cards from the format, where they should be in!

Thank you! At last, a little movement.

And what is the first thing in the merchant when you switch to packs?

Something that says "All Promos" which costs 400g, and is not The Ages End collection.

And right now :
Pippin, WoBaS - 65 gold
Hides - 41
Still absurd for ya?

No, that's great! It sounds like this thread worked, then! What, did you sell some of your cards back?

Or you want to post the cards that currently are at high price, because someone just bought them ?

Exactly. Then we'll know what is currently high, and hopefully someone who has extras of those will then be motivated to sell some back. Think of this thread as similar to a stock market ticker.

Yeah, obviously you didnt care to read his idea, before claiming it wouldnt help, as said changes are part of what he suggested.

No, I did read his idea back when he first posted it. At the time, I couldn't decide whether or not it would help or not. I'm still on the fence. But tickets really do have no bearing on solving the problem. Giving new accounts gold has a bearing on the problem, and that is completely independent of whether or not a ticket system is implemented. The issue I see with Grond's proposal, is that he would have new accounts starting with a certain amount of product. So it seems to me that this is just adding an extra step, since somebody can open up dummy accounts just to get product, sell it back to the merchant, and replace it with gold. So, either way, they'd still essentially be getting starting gold.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I just said its price isnt surprising, given that the starters are not for sale and the cards are therefore very, very rare,

Your initial response was that we should have seen it when it cost 8000g. The impression I got from you is that we should be happy that it's as "low" as it is. Well, we're not happy! If you are now saying that you agree that the current price is still absurd, then I'm not sure what you're arguing about. Incidentally, I see that Mauhur has now crept up to 837g, so the issue appears to only be getting worse, unless steps are taken.

and then i said it would make sense for the starters to be added by MarcinS if their content is known.

"if he has time." It seems to me like this should be a priority. I'm honestly surprised that Gemp has been around as long as it has, but that it still doesn't offer all the various starters/boosters/etc.

And I have to say, I'm a bit surprised that you wouldn't know that the content for these starters is indeed known.

No, I would say its because you never play in Dailys and such.

I'm trying to, dude. But Dailies only just started being offered in the format that I like to play.

We ALL started with starters or starter-like decks after the reset, you would be surpriced to see how much playing in Dailys and Leagues  helps with that.

I'd certainly like to find out... but I want to play Expanded, and right now that is difficult to do.

Oh, you don't want to wait, to COLLECT the cards?

Hmmm. I thought you were against putting words in someone's mouth?

Again, if that was the issue, I would not be in favor of doing away with singles altogether.

Why all the bother?  The merchant was reset not long ago, and people are complaining that they haven't yet completed their collections!

No, they're complaining that cards like Mauhur cost 837g.

People start off with none of the good cards and the sell prices start off much lower than the buy prices, so there's no reason to sell your cards now.

Yep.

But if you wait for a couple of weeks, your collection will start to grow a bit (especially if you play the leagues) and you'll notice that the sell prices have increased due to demand increasing.

The problem for me, is that as a dedicated Expanded player, I'm in a catch-22 situation. Expanded is by faaarrrr my favorite format. Fellowship is okay, but boring to me. The other formats I just don't find particularly fun. Whenever an Expanded league is offered, I totally join it and play the heck out of it... but Expanded leagues just aren't offered very often, so the opportunities for me to get more cards by playing in a league I actually like are few. I could play in the Fellowship or Movie Dailies, but again those formats don't interest me much. And on top of that, if I want to do well in them, I'd have to invest in cards for those formats. So, I'd have to invest in cards for formats I don't like, just to participate and do well, to hopefully get more cards for the format I actually do like. Now we finally have Expanded Dailies (yay), but they're scheduled at the same time as Movie Dailies, which are more established, and which players have already invested more effort in. So I try to participate in those, but the Movie Dailies tend to get the players.

However, I do agree that the Promos (and also Fixed Hunters block cards) are a massive flaw in the merchant.

Thank you!

Whilst it is possible to get every other card elsewhere, there is no reason whatsoever to sell your promos.  Their values go up ~10% each week, more if someone decides to buy one, never going down in value.

Great points. But clarify something for me: The values go up 10% each week even if nobody buys any? Why is that?

Why was the decision taken to take them out of the prizes from your league wins (instead of always getting a normally useless Foil Common/Uncommon)?

Great question.

Taking the promos out of circulation will cause inflation once their prices get ridiculous and a couple of people get very lucky.  Then that will spread to the other cards.

Makes sense.

This is more of a concern about prizes rather than the way the merchant works, though.

Well, right now I'm in a situation where I can't get prizes for the format I like to play. Once I am able to play my format for prizes, then I'll start worrying about prizes!

[Grond]

I totally agree about the fixed cards prices. There are some very important ones and staples like City Gates, which I would like to have at a point, when I do start playing expanded.
 And no I didn't sold any hides or Pippins, since I didn't had any. And im sure this topic didn't had anything to do with it, just people opened some boosters and sell them for gold. Which leads to my other point - If you want to stick to the cards you open, just to 'have' them, instead of selling them in order to get gold to improve your current decks, then that's your strategy, I personally would never do that. About the 'poor' people and stuff, I am ready to register a new account with 200 gold to make a movie deck, with which I would win at least 20 boosters for a week. Do you want to bet ?

[sgtdraino]

I totally agree about the fixed cards prices. There are some very important ones and staples like City Gates, which I would like to have at a point, when I do start playing expanded.

There's also some staple rares without which some cultures are basically unplayable. Hides is a great example of this: Dunlend are basically useless without 4x Hides.

And im sure this topic didn't had anything to do with it, just people opened some boosters and sell them for gold.

You can't be sure of that, because it is impossible for you to know. I see this thread as a good thing, specifically for that possibility. After all, you're here, right? If you did have those cards, you'd sell them back, right? So, there ya go.

Which leads to my other point - If you want to stick to the cards you open, just to 'have' them, instead of selling them in order to get gold to improve your current decks, then that's your strategy, I personally would never do that.

It's not about strategy, it's about effort. It's about actually bothering to go into the Merchant to sell extra cards back. Not everybody does that, particularly when the spread is so wide. Plus some people are going to be holding out to make foils.

About the 'poor' people and stuff, I am ready to register a new account with 200 gold to make a movie deck, with which I would win at least 20 boosters for a week. Do you want to bet ?

Since I don't like Movie, that bet's not really meaningful to me. How about a different bet: Register a new account with 200g to make an Expanded deck, and win 20 boosters a week with it. THEN you'll be speaking my language!

[Grond]

well there are no expanded dailies, and I got 0 experience in that format. Playing with less than 4 hides at the beggining of your my cards collection is THE idea of the whole thing. You dont start playing computer RPGs with full gear..

[sgtdraino]

well there are no expanded dailies,

Yes there are. They are at the same time as the Movie dailies.

and I got 0 experience in that format.

Not taking my bet then, I guess.

Playing with less than 4 hides at the beggining of your my cards collection is THE idea of the whole thing.

Never suggested otherwise. The current price of Hides is reasonable. The previous price of Hides was not.

[Eukalyptus]

Boy, you surely do come across as grumpy, sgtdraino.

First of all: Refrain from talking down to someone. DjiDjo isn't smearing it in your face, he is just stating facts. So stay calm. No need for insults.

Second: The "All Promo cards" item for 400g IS the Ages End edition. You'd know that if you ever bought one. Besides, that slot just appeared after it was announced, that AE is available to buy.

Third: Buy a starter and get your lazy #$&*@! into the dailys. You may lose at first, but multiple players have shown that they can get into the 2 booster range with few to none rare cards. Some use them to look for the cards they need or to get boosters from sets with high priced cards, so they can sell them to buy their desired cards. I made 130 gold alone from the daily yesterday by just selling the rares.

Fourth: I'm actually okay with cards like Hides and Goblin Armory being over 100 gold. Those cards are the core of those cultures. It's almost pointless to play them otherwise. If I'd wanted to have every player access to every card, I'd play casual. But such is the nature of tournament playing: not everyone has every card. And so it should be imo.

[bibfortuna25]

There should still be dailies at different times of the day, to give more players a chance to participate.

[sgtdraino]

Boy, you surely do come across as grumpy, sgtdraino.

Well, sometimes I am grumpy.

First of all: Refrain from talking down to someone. DjiDjo isn't smearing it in your face, he is just stating facts. So stay calm. No need for insults.

I assume you are talking about the contents of the Hunters starter. No insult was intended, the guy strikes me as pretty experienced. I was genuinely surprised that he did not know that these starter contents are a known quantity.

Second: The "All Promo cards" item for 400g IS the Ages End edition. You'd know that if you ever bought one.

Then it should be called "Ages End," and in that case I'm glad I never bought it. If I had, I would have expected to get "All Promos," precisely as advertised.

Third: Buy a starter and get your lazy #$&*@! into the dailys.

Done and done. But with Expanded and Movie at the same time, I can't get enough people in there to actually play.

I made 130 gold alone from the daily yesterday by just selling the rares.

How about you guys do me a real solid, and branch out into the Expanded Dailies for a while? Drum up some action for them. Who knows, maybe you'll even find out you like them. It shouldn't be too tough to adapt a movie deck to Expanded.

Fourth: I'm actually okay with cards like Hides and Goblin Armory being over 100 gold. Those cards are the core of those cultures. It's almost pointless to play them otherwise.

It's for that exact reason that I think they should be something approaching Fixed, instead of Rare. They are a staple card, without which the whole culture is basically unplayable. In game design, you don't want to make an entire class of cards useless unless you have one certain rare. That's just bad design. Decipher should probably have re-released these as fixed promos. They didn't, and here we are. Because they are staple cards, I think they should be made more affordable. I wouldn't go over 100g.

There should still be dailies at different times of the day, to give more players a chance to participate.

Totally agree, Bib. As it is, the Gondor dailies happen while I'm at work, and the Rohan dailes happen at 8:30pm my time. Both of those times are tough for me, let alone trying to compete with Movie dailies at the same time.

The perfect time for me would be 21:30 GMT.