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Author Topic: Site Control to combat Site Manipulation?  (Read 7313 times)

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July 27, 2014, 08:51:22 PM
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dmaz

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Site Control to combat Site Manipulation?
« on: July 27, 2014, 08:51:22 PM »
Hey guys!

I haven't been very active in GEMP lately, mostly due to work and life, but I'm planning on getting back into casual (rather than just leagues).

I really like Expanded format, and am musing about new deck ideas.

Once of the biggest topics that you see people complaining about in Expanded is Site Manipulation decks. It can be very NPE sometimes, and, yeah, it just sucks when you lose a game to the sites!  :evil:

Well...you are still losing to the player who knows how to build a deck that uses the sites to punish you, but it just feels crappy sometimes, am I right? haha

This is just an idea, and I don't know how effective it would be, but it MAY be possible to keep your opponent from punishing you so much by making a straight site control deck.

The challenge here would be timing it so that you could control one of their key sites, which is either used to punish you, or help their fellowship. This can be tough, since you can't take control of a site that they occupy, and quite often a site-manipulating shadow makes use of site manipulating FP cards as well   :-S

HOWEVER, this isn't to say that it would make some kind of difference against them. They won't always be able to pull off the change that they want at every site, but if your shadow ISN'T running site control, they can just yank the card on the following turn. Led Astray is a region-free way to do this very easily. I've seen this used quite often to yank Stewards Tomb from site 3 and then dump it back onto you at site 6 with Nelya.  >:(

So...since I've never seriously played a site control deck (maybe Dunland once or twice), I'm curious as to your thoughts about the best kind of rapid and consistent site control. I've actually never even touched the new Uruk culture (other than Ugluk of course), and am unsure as to how well they do with controlling sites. There's like a high strength one that takes control for each win I think.

Factors that I suppose we would be looking for would be:
A shadow that isn't condition-reliant for controlling sites.
Could possibly include a combination of shadow cultures, benefiting from the quickest site-controlling cards.
Others?? (any ideas you might have)

The deck wouldn't HAVE to be huge as you wouldn't really stock up heavily on cards to subsequently punish your opponent for each site you control, as your intention is just to get sites so that your opponent can't crush your fellowship. You're basically setting yourself to be free to move faster than your opponent to site 9 (since you are most likely going first if you just bid zero...they will want you going first).

SO...do you guys have any proven strategies....or maybe just some ideas?

I'll do some browsing and post something soon as well :)

August 03, 2014, 01:18:36 PM
Reply #1

sgtdraino

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Re: Site Control to combat Site Manipulation?
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2014, 01:18:36 PM »
In my experience, Besiegers are the best at controlling sites, followed by Dunland. I don't play site control myself that much, so someone else would be better for getting specific strategies.

I've heard site control mentioned as a possible counter to site manipulation in the past, but generally I don't think it's very effective. It would stop certain specific cards like Led Astray that change a site on the "adventure path," but controlling a site in-and-of-itself doesn't prevent that site from being replaced by a different site (Traveled Leader, for example). Plus you can't even grab a site until both players have passed it, so I think site control is not going to be very effective against hardcore site manipulation. Unfortunately the best counter to site manipulation is site manipulation, plus a well-placed Mount Doom of course.

I've gotten to the point where I view site manipulation as one of the key game mechanics of Expanded Format. It's just another level of strategy: Gaining a terrain advantage over your opponent. Think of it as out-marching them.
"I would have followed you, my brother... my captain... my king." - Boromir

August 04, 2014, 01:12:41 PM
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Eukalyptus

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Re: Site Control to combat Site Manipulation?
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2014, 01:12:41 PM »
Besiegers are probably the best choice, as they have everything: everyhing-except-companions removal, threat removal in shadow (Their Marching Companies & Gorgoroth Agitator), so Madril won't be a problem. Not even after a Deep in Thought you just get them all back with Agitator. Plus, they are cheap and gain from the extra twilight the regional moving gives.

August 05, 2014, 06:35:30 AM
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Invincible

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Re: Site Control to combat Site Manipulation?
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2014, 06:35:30 AM »
Siege troop is splashable in almost any deck and can be quite effective if your opponent can't wound it.

August 06, 2014, 05:30:54 PM
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Shelobplayer

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Re: Site Control to combat Site Manipulation?
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2014, 05:30:54 PM »
Siege troop is splashable in almost any deck and can be quite effective if your opponent can't wound it.


Sounds like a huge if for 8 twilight.

August 07, 2014, 12:26:23 AM
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dmaz

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Re: Site Control to combat Site Manipulation?
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2014, 12:26:23 AM »
Hey all!

Thanks of all of the comments!

Like you guys mentioned already, Besiegers were the first thing that came to mind for me. Just really fast, generally reliable site control.

It took me a while, but I dug through every expanded card in the new Evil Men and Uruk cultures. What I found really interested me, maybe it will interest you as well!

With Uruks, I noticed that there actually IS a way to control the site that your opponent's fellowship is currently on, during the Skirmish phase - Uruk Cavern Striker. It'd definitely a long shot, but if your opponent doesn't do direct wounding, you could theoretically pull it off.

But before you can do that, you need to get control of the sites, and Evil Men seem to have that taken care of.

Has anyone noticed or used the Rapt Hillman/Pavise combo? If you can use Ships to get rid of the threats to keep your opponent from IBing your Hillmen with Madril, you are almost guaranteed 2 sites for as low as 3 twilight. To make it better, Rapt Hillman isn't even unique, and his spotting requirement works with any other Evil Man.

Without really thinking about the mechanics, I threw together a shadow side for this deck idea. In the end, I decided to run those 6 Uruks instead of Gollum and Evil Smelling Fens. Not sure which would be better. The deck as a whole might be a little expensive. Anyway, basically a rough draft, but let me know what you think.

33 Cards

Minions:
Wandering Hillman x3
Rapt Hillman x4
Mumak Commander, Giant Among the Swertings
Easterling Sneak
Engrossed Hillman x3
Southron Archer x4
Desert Lord x2
Gothmog, Lieutenant of Morgul x3
Uruk Cavern Striker x2
White Hand Invader x4

Possessions:
Pavise x4
Ships of Great Draught x2


August 07, 2014, 12:33:47 AM
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dmaz

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Re: Site Control to combat Site Manipulation?
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2014, 12:33:47 AM »
I'm really digging this Rapt Hillman...seems to be an excellent card. On top of the fact that he gets sites for you, if the FP player wants to even take advantage of his game text at regroup, they are going to need to allow him to win a skirmish to be around for that, lending itself to a free wound.

August 07, 2014, 01:02:08 AM
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Vordan

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Re: Site Control to combat Site Manipulation?
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2014, 01:02:08 AM »
not to mention that if the FP has some man in the fellowship he can't liberate the site in regroup, as rapt's text refers to generic MAN, so aragorn and friends are just gonna help this fella.

August 08, 2014, 08:43:40 AM
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sgtdraino

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Re: Site Control to combat Site Manipulation?
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2014, 08:43:40 AM »
This thread may be relevant to this discussion:

http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,8965.0.html
"I would have followed you, my brother... my captain... my king." - Boromir

August 23, 2014, 12:37:34 PM
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sgtdraino

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Re: Site Control to combat Site Manipulation?
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2014, 12:37:34 PM »
dmaz, any updates on your super site control deck? It seemed pretty impressive the couple of times I played it. Ready for a decklist? What you going to call it?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 09:08:15 AM by sgtdraino »
"I would have followed you, my brother... my captain... my king." - Boromir

August 24, 2014, 08:35:09 AM
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dmaz

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Re: Site Control to combat Site Manipulation?
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2014, 08:35:09 AM »
Yo!

Thanks for kicking me back into gear with this!

Here's what I have so far...I ended up taking out the Cavern Striker. It was a novel idea being able to do that, but for practicality he didn't add a lot to the deck.

I lost the replay, as I had a lot of league games in between my win with this deck and now (in other words I got lazy in keeping up with my own forum topics haha).

Anyway, I threw in the fellowship as well, just to highlight that it's a heavy cycling deck. Your focus isn't to try to make your fellowship run, but to keep in alive and beat down the enemy. If you can hold him off until region three whilst single moving, you should be able to double for a win if you need to.

Without further ado: here's Hard Core Site Control

Frodo, Resolute Hobbit
The One Ring, The Great Ring

Isengard Ruined
Steward's Tomb
Cavern Entrance
Westemnet Village
Wold Battlefield
Heights of Isengard
Imladris
Mount Doom
Sirannon Ruins

Starting Fellowship:
Pippin, In the Bloom of Health
Merry, In the Bloom of Health
Fredegar Bolger, Fatty (if one of the Hobbits MUST die, it's him...since he loves to EAT it ><)
Quickbeam, Bregalad
Skinbark, Fladrif
Host of Fangorn
Ent Horde

Gandalf, Wise Guide x2
Leaflock, Finglas
Lindenroot, Elder Shepherd
Radagast, The Brown
Treebeard, Enraged Shepherd
Barliman Butterbur, Prancing Pony Proprietor
Glamdring, Foe-Hammer
Narya
A Wizard is Never Late x4
Grown Suddenly Tall x2
Roll of Thunder x2
Terrible and Evil
Traveled Leader x2
Make Haste x3
Warmed Up a Bit x3

Shadow:

Band of Uruk Bowmen x2
Easterling Sneak
Engrossed Hillman x3
Mumak Commander, Giant among the Swerting
Rapt Hillman x4
Wandering Hillman x3
Desert Lord x2
Southron Archer x4
Gothmog, Lieutenant of Morgul x3
White Hand Invader x4
Pavise x4
Ships of Great Draught x2

Overall, for this deck, I want to do away with the Bands of Uruk Blowmen and maybe incorporate some Gollum with ESF to pull the White Hand Invaders back again and again (they can really face-rape by region three, as you will probably have a good 4 or 5 sites unless your opponent has hard core liberation going). Maybe a fourth Gothmog would be called for too?

I wanted to keep the card count relatively low at 66 to get cycling fast, but maybe I can go a little bigger since I have so many ents out to start and then the AWINL...