LotR TCG Wiki → Card Sets:  All 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 → Forums:  TLHH CC

Author Topic: Do We Have any Evolutionists  (Read 5090 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

October 25, 2008, 01:13:25 PM
Reply #15

MR. Lurtzy

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • King
  • Posts: 2745
  • Wouldn't it be nice if we were Hodor?
    • My website
Re: Do We Have any Evolutionists
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2008, 01:13:25 PM »
SOP speaks the truth.

October 25, 2008, 01:20:39 PM
Reply #16

SomeRandomDude

  • ********
  • Information Offline
  • Maia
  • Posts: 7004
  • Most Likely To Usurp Kralik and Dáin
    • My Wordpress
Re: Do We Have any Evolutionists
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2008, 01:20:39 PM »
SOP speaks the truth.

And you spam.

If anyone can't access the link, I'll post it, but I'd like to debate the point of increasing, virtually infinite complexity. How did the perfect conditions emerge to make such an infinitely complex system?
NB- 4 year veteran of CC/TLHH

"It was like:
Kralik: "What hath God wrought"
NB: "I dunno, but I'm in ur house eating ur food.""
-Elessar's Socks

Trade List- ft. Aragorn, Defender of Rohan

October 25, 2008, 01:43:12 PM
Reply #17

MR. Lurtzy

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • King
  • Posts: 2745
  • Wouldn't it be nice if we were Hodor?
    • My website
Re: Do We Have any Evolutionists
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2008, 01:43:12 PM »
Let us not confuse opinions with spam.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2008, 02:11:35 PM by MR. Lurtzy »

October 25, 2008, 02:18:56 PM
Reply #18

Pepin The Breve

  • Well-spoken Gentlehobbit
  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Posts: 503
Re: Do We Have any Evolutionists
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2008, 02:18:56 PM »
   GateTroll, the things i said didn´t come for some crazzy attack or inspiration, but from years and years of studying areas of science and i will be glad to explain to you my thoughts.

  1- Where Big Bang came from? No definitive answer to this, good thing in science is that you don´t part of the pressumption that you got all the answers and scientist don´t have any fear of saying: " i don´t know, maybe one day we will get the answer". The difference with religion is only that you don´t atribute that to some divine oniscient power, when you don´t have a better explanation you just say: "it´s god work". I´m not an expert at this but if you talk with some astrophysician we will simply answer somwrhing like: "nothing that we know until moment". Again, no problem if you choose the god´s option, i will respect your beliefs, but then you must respect (and try to learn about) mine.

   2- Modern humans (Homo sapiens sapiens) have a common ancestor with monkey and Neanderthals and current opinion is that Neanderthals (Homo neanderthalis) were extinct and Homo sapiens don´t directly derive from them, but from Homo erectus lineage. Still the fact if ever Homo sapiens had direct contatc with Neanderthals is controverse. So i think you was precipitated in making that afirmative, for that even people that study this issue for his entire life can´t give a definitive answer (but they still trying to make theorys based on empirical data and formuling hypothesis.

   3- Creationism isn´t considered science by great part of scientist international community. Even the pope had pointed that church  Just this don´t tell you that creacionism sucks or rules. Be or not be considered a science (or pseudo-science) don´t means that the thing is necessarily good or bad.
   Yes, in evolution theory you have many ways to test it, learn about population dinamics, genetic manipulation, Evo Devo, and even molecular clock (the last with plenty questionable aspect in my opinion) and you will see evolution hypothesis being tested.

   4- Well, i belive that life could originate by chance, if that is what you speaking of. By chance, molecular compond dinamycs could change to stand against forces of entrophy and then what we call "life" can evolve (even that definition of life is a little bit tricky). Experiments have poited to that. Creacionism always ends in one prerrogative that we can´t get a answer (God´s work).  I respect if you belive on creacionism, but i´m saying that it´s prerrogatives don´t explain the things so well than evolutionism for me, you may have your own beliefs. Of course Evolution theory may have many mistakes, but with adavance of it´s knowloge i guess things get even more logic and clear (even that the "real truth behind life and it´s origins could never be solved).

   5-  The fact is: tested or not it will ever end in what you belive or not. How can you tell what is "the truth"? Sorry, but you can´t, then you have to rely on theorys that explain the reality you observe (throught your senses) and that´s when evolution x creationism show up.
     I have to say that evolution = scince. Like every theory it may have lot of errors and misunderstandings interpretations, but in fact evolution is consider a well stabilished stream of the the scince Biology. Again you can choose not to belive on this theory, but please keep in mind that when you said "Evolution is not scince" you are against hundreds and hundreds of scientist that use empirical methods to do research, so please don´t say that this is "utter stupidity"

   I have one curiosity i like to ask to you: How older you think Earth is? and how older the first animals we can call humans are? You belive that creationism is more related to other fields of scince (Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Geology, etc...) than evolutionism?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2008, 02:33:25 PM by Pepin The Breve »

October 25, 2008, 03:28:12 PM
Reply #19

MR. Lurtzy

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • King
  • Posts: 2745
  • Wouldn't it be nice if we were Hodor?
    • My website
Re: Do We Have any Evolutionists
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2008, 03:28:12 PM »
Guys, keep this civil.

October 25, 2008, 03:48:19 PM
Reply #20

Gil-Estel

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • King
  • Posts: 2267
  • Abuser of the Force
Re: Do We Have any Evolutionists
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2008, 03:48:19 PM »
wow Lurtzy....minion of the white hand, advocating civil behaviour?....haha :D
..."Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill"...

October 25, 2008, 08:56:55 PM
Reply #21

SomeRandomDude

  • ********
  • Information Offline
  • Maia
  • Posts: 7004
  • Most Likely To Usurp Kralik and Dáin
    • My Wordpress
Re: Do We Have any Evolutionists
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2008, 08:56:55 PM »
Page 2. Wow.

Yeah, I never saw this working.

<locked>
NB- 4 year veteran of CC/TLHH

"It was like:
Kralik: "What hath God wrought"
NB: "I dunno, but I'm in ur house eating ur food.""
-Elessar's Socks

Trade List- ft. Aragorn, Defender of Rohan

October 27, 2008, 10:40:36 AM
Reply #22

FM

  • Future Judge
  • *******
  • Information Offline
  • Wizard
  • Posts: 4074
Re: Do We Have any Evolutionists
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2008, 10:40:36 AM »
Ok, every single post with offensive comments (or the ones related to them) were UTTERLY DELETED. In case you're wondering, yes, they were not even moved to the Dead Pile.
I'm leaving NBarden's post above to remind you guys that this topic already got locked once, so I'm going to unlock it now and let it be but it can be locked again it it goes wrong.
However, be forewarned, and this is DIRECTLY for you, Gate Troll, but works for everyone else as well: ANY post containing offensive language will be deleted WITHOUT prior notice, and I'll personally talk with Kralik and Dáin to get the user banned for a week, for starters. Consider this a first-offense bonus (although we know it's not a first offense).
Are we all clear?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 10:42:21 AM by Felipe Musco »

October 27, 2008, 11:06:54 AM
Reply #23

DáinIronfoot

  • Bearded Axeman
  • ********
  • Information Offline
  • Maia
  • Posts: 6162
  • Never tickle a Dwarf!
Re: Do We Have any Evolutionists
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2008, 11:06:54 AM »
And don't forget to check here if you have any questions about what's acceptable...and what will result in potential action having to be taken. Just FYI for those that haven't seen it already, or just haven't read through it in a while.
Best regards,
Dáin


Check out Lasting Alliances and The Road Ahead, my two completed DC sets, and also The Way Into Mordor (in progress), all part of my 5-set Wars of the Ring DC "block".

October 27, 2008, 11:09:17 AM
Reply #24

Thranduil

  • *******
  • Information Offline
  • Wizard
  • Posts: 4996
    • Zalman's Dungeon (blog of SF stories by Thranduil)
Re: Do We Have any Evolutionists
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2008, 11:09:17 AM »
Really, someone should just delete this thread forever - it was never going to work. I don't see any need for anyone to continue posting here. It's not like anyone is going to change their views on this fundamental issue in an online debate.

Thranduil
« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 11:11:30 AM by Thranduil »

October 27, 2008, 11:42:47 AM
Reply #25

FM

  • Future Judge
  • *******
  • Information Offline
  • Wizard
  • Posts: 4074
Re: Do We Have any Evolutionists
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2008, 11:42:47 AM »
Yes, but I, for one, like reading people's opinions, thoughts and backings for it.

October 27, 2008, 04:54:56 PM
Reply #26

Centurion

  • *
  • Information Offline
  • Orc
  • Posts: 43
Re: Do We Have any Evolutionists
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2008, 04:54:56 PM »
I had intended for this to be a list for me to note to AVOID insulting people in the future by accidentally assuming they were Christian a simple statement of principles NOT to spark a war I can see that this was something of a mistake.:evil:


so please if I wanted a debate I would have said evolution vr. creationism/intelligent design
« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 05:01:01 PM by Centurion »
Caffeine destroys Society.
Society destroys Freedom.
Freedom is the right of all sentient beings (and therefore should not be destroyed.)
Caffeine, therefore, destroys the enemy of freedom.

Caffeine, therefore, is a sacred weapon for the protection of all sentient beings. -- Agent Drake

October 27, 2008, 05:43:44 PM
Reply #27

FM

  • Future Judge
  • *******
  • Information Offline
  • Wizard
  • Posts: 4074
Re: Do We Have any Evolutionists
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2008, 05:43:44 PM »
But let me be honest, I think being offended because someone assumed you're Christian would be pretty unreasonable, now wouldn't it? It's like me, Pepin and leokula being offended when people assume we live in a city in the middle of the jungle, because we're from Brazil. I think it's much more reasonable to laugh about it and explain than to get upset about it.

October 27, 2008, 06:25:23 PM
Reply #28

Centurion

  • *
  • Information Offline
  • Orc
  • Posts: 43
Re: Do We Have any Evolutionists
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2008, 06:25:23 PM »
I realize that now and I wanted to clarify the intention of the topic. perhaps it was a little bit foolish my reasoning was something along the line of "you can never be to careful" perhaps I shall work towards more positive debates in the future


Who would like to debate the best brand of jello   
« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 06:44:44 PM by Centurion »
Caffeine destroys Society.
Society destroys Freedom.
Freedom is the right of all sentient beings (and therefore should not be destroyed.)
Caffeine, therefore, destroys the enemy of freedom.

Caffeine, therefore, is a sacred weapon for the protection of all sentient beings. -- Agent Drake

October 27, 2008, 06:26:30 PM
Reply #29

Pepin The Breve

  • Well-spoken Gentlehobbit
  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Posts: 503
Re: Do We Have any Evolutionists
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2008, 06:26:30 PM »
  Well people, i was really trying to show my point of view.

    I agree with somethings said here but i profundly disagree with others, so just doing what 99% people do at this situation: show arguments to make people think about it (well, i have to confess that in 98% of people just want to convice other people to think same as he/she...but sometimes that´s not my case).

    About the thing said that Evolution is not a science, as a Biologist i have to disagree: there are important international journals that publish papers dealing with evolution like "trends in ecology and evolution" and even "top impact megazines" like Scince and Nature. Evolution ideas can be tested and predictions can be made relying in his thories. Like i said before they possible may not reflect the "truth" and you can disagree with them, but saing that evolution isn´t part of the field science of Biology may be a "negligence" (in the lack of a better word to put here).

    Even that my field of work don´t deal only with evolution research, i work with its theories a little bit and my colleges work with it directly, including testing hypothesis. As far as i know from my little knowloge after a few years studing it, i have to say that is a very solid theory.

    Unfortunetely i had never done profund research at creascionism (althought i have read some things) so i know it very superficialy.

    If what GT said is true, that creascionism states that earth have only about 6 thousands years, i have to said that this information is very conflicting with other estabilished knowloge of other science areas like Physics, Chemystry and Geology. So i would like to hear what creationists may have to say about it.

    As far as i know intelligent design states that such complexity seen in nature cannot be explained by nothing other than an creator´s work. Studying Evolution we find nice hypothesis and theories about how the things could work (and how such complexity could have arise). The fact is that at given scale you can always atribute what you don´t know to a divinity. I really think this kinf of faith can have good implications and positive aspects sometimes. I live in a catholic majority country (even that the law says it must be "laico" - maybe FM or leokula can help me to translate this) and i reserve to me the right to belive in what i find the most logic and pragmatic theory: Evolution.

    I try to never judge people just because they are this or that, but by the way they act over my "perceived reality".

    That´s it for my cheap philosophy today!

    Cheers everyone!