Durin's Secret Society of Dear Friends

[sgtdraino]

Just a quick comment: My reasoning behind not using Radagast is Durin's Secret usually leaves an easy triple.

I actually had a question about that: Your strategy has you triple from 3 to 6, and then again from 6 to 9, but you've only got one Durin's Secret in your deck. Once you play it from 3 to 6, how do you get it back in your hand the very next turn, to use again on 6 to 9?

Radagast lets your opponent cycle quite a bit.

He does on 3 to 6, certainly. My plan is to just kill him off on the 6 to 9. For me, the permanent extra move limit, with the advantage of being able to retrieve extra cards I need and not worry about getting Durin's Secret every turn is worth it. It also means I don't have to stock Gandalf, who doesn't really do much otherwise.

Watching your playthrough...

* Why that Frodo? It seems like there are better options. Anti-Discard, Anti-Threat, Emergency wounding, etc. The turn you played possessions on him you had 37 twilight before moving... it's not like he's that useful.

Because he has an Aragorn signet, and because (since I'm not discarding Smeagol), he's better for me than the other Aragorn signet versions. It's important to play most of the possessions directly on Frodo because they are better protected on him, and necessary for some things like Frodo's Cloak.

* Lucky starting hand.

That was actually my worst case scenario, other than not getting anything I needed at all.

* Wow, watching your huge deck discard takes forever.

Yeah, it does on playback. It's faster during the actual game, but of course you know this.

* Lucky minion lineup at sites 2-3. Hardly anything.

Minion lineup is just a bonus early in the game. I don't really care about playing Shadow. If I need them later, I'll Rest By Blind Night and pull out some good options to slow the opponent down.

* Enquea on sites 2-3 against Sam/Gollum would WRECK you! I think you need a better burden strategy for the early game.

Like your deck, the early turns are when this deck is weakest. Moving from 2 to 3 is a moment of vulnerability. Hopefully my opponent doesn't play Enquea, or I've got Might of Numenor in hand, or I've gotten lucky with Preparations. Ideas? What is your burden strategy from 2 to 3?

* Why not throw in Durin for extra Preparations exerts AND a transfer of possessions from Gimli?

He's in there, I just didn't draw him. I could get him of course, but other cards have a higher priority in this setup.

Slaked Thirsts is necessary to avoid Shotgun Enquea, Wormtongue and Chief Counselor. I noticed you didn't use it until later in the game and even then you couldn't load very many.

I can use Slaked Thirsts if I need it. I can also Elven Rope Grima. Otherwise, Shoulder to Shoulder and Might of Numenor theoretically takes care of the other stuff.

* IMO Pathfinder is indispensable so you don't get permastopped at site 7

That's a good point, didn't think about that. Though if he's using that, I'll just sit at 7, and use Rest By Blind Night to make it tough for him to get by me.

* Str 23 Smeagol was cool

heh heh

* I'd like to see how this works vs. different Shadows. How would you fight against, say, Easterlings?

Good question. Probably not very well. At least until they run out of their weapons.

[Kralik]

Just a quick comment: My reasoning behind not using Radagast is Durin's Secret usually leaves an easy triple.

I actually had a question about that: Your strategy has you triple from 3 to 6, and then again from 6 to 9, but you've only got one Durin's Secret in your deck. Once you play it from 3 to 6, how do you get it back in your hand the very next turn, to use again on 6 to 9?

Dear Friends...?

He does on 3 to 6, certainly. My plan is to just kill him off on the 6 to 9. For me, the permanent extra move limit, with the advantage of being able to retrieve extra cards I need and not worry about getting Durin's Secret every turn is worth it. It also means I don't have to stock Gandalf, who doesn't really do much otherwise.

Deep in Thought, Roll of Thunder, Gandalf's Staff, and Not the First Halfling all need Gandalf and make my original deck much stronger and help deal with certain dangerous threats. Oh, and Gandalf nets you an additional companion twice in the game (sites 3 and 6) and can let you kill Frodo safely and still use Smeagol (see bottom of post). Very useful.

* Lucky minion lineup at sites 2-3. Hardly anything.

Minion lineup is just a bonus early in the game. I don't really care about playing Shadow. If I need them later, I'll Rest By Blind Night and pull out some good options to slow the opponent down.

No, I meant your opponent. You got lucky not to get anything other than a str. 7 minion to fight.

Like your deck, the early turns are when this deck is weakest. Moving from 2 to 3 is a moment of vulnerability. Hopefully my opponent doesn't play Enquea, or I've got Might of Numenor in hand, or I've gotten lucky with Preparations. Ideas? What is your burden strategy from 2 to 3?

Don't go over 5 burdens. I rely on hand-discarded not burden-adding Smeagol to both help me cycle and survive early encounters.

* IMO Pathfinder is indispensable so you don't get permastopped at site 7

That's a good point, didn't think about that. Though if he's using that, I'll just sit at 7, and use Rest By Blind Night to make it tough for him to get by me.

Since you didn't have Rest By Blind Night in hand, and you don't have many exertions to spare, I don't know that this would work. For reference, I have had plenty of games when my opponent gets to 7-8 right before I get to 9. If *they* have Radagast and I don't have Constantly Threatening, it's all over.

Me: 1-2, 2-3, 3-6, 6-9.
Opponent: 1-3, 3-5, 5-7.

Without Pathfinder you might get:

You: 1-2, 2-3, 3-6, 6-7.
Opponent: 1-3, 3-5, 5-7, 7-9.

* I'd like to see how this works vs. different Shadows. How would you fight against, say, Easterlings?

Good question. Probably not very well. At least until they run out of their weapons.

So my strategies are:

Not the First Halfling: Easy to build tokens, prevents overwhelming.
Deep in Thought: Discard Small Hope.
Roll of Thunder: Discard Easterling Polearm and kill Easterling Captain.
Gandalf's Staff: Emergency Easterling Survival.
Kill Frodo: No burdens, Sam takes the Ring and I can still play No Help for It.

BTW, it's surprising how many games I've played with my OWN Easterlings where opponent doesn't take the last option. I've overwhelmed 3-5 companions in a single turn when all they needed to do is pass the ring on to neutralize the threat.

[sgtdraino]

Dear Friends...?

That gets it back in your deck the very next turn, but it doesn't get it into your hand to use during that turn.... Aaaaaah, simple regular ol' regrouping. Of course! Sometimes I have a tendency to overthink things.

Deep in Thought, Roll of Thunder, Gandalf's Staff, and Not the First Halfling all need Gandalf and make my original deck much stronger and help deal with certain dangerous threats.

I prefer Elf analogues of DIT and ROT, which I can potentially put in my hand immediately with Elrond. The other two are nice I guess, and they certainly work for your deck.

Oh, and Gandalf nets you an additional companion twice in the game (sites 3 and 6) and can let you kill Frodo safely and still use Smeagol (see bottom of post). Very useful.

With this deck, I really want as many companions out as early as possible, so I can play out all my possessions on them. I tried Gandalf, but found I really wasn't using him... and ultimately decided I didn't need him.

No, I meant your opponent. You got lucky not to get anything other than a str. 7 minion to fight.

Ah yes! That was a pleasant surprise, certainly!

Don't go over 5 burdens.

lol. That may indeed have to be the route I take.

I rely on hand-discarded not burden-adding Smeagol to both help me cycle and survive early encounters.

Yeah, I like him too... but this other Smeagol works much better with Not Listening.

Since you didn't have Rest By Blind Night in hand, and you don't have many exertions to spare, I don't know that this would work.

I could have had it in hand if I had chosen to. It's all based on what the situation is when I'm at site 6. If he's close on my tail, has a chance of beating me to the end, then I'm most likely putting that in my hand to use at site 7.

For reference, I have had plenty of games when my opponent gets to 7-8 right before I get to 9. If *they* have Radagast and I don't have Constantly Threatening, it's all over.

If my opponent has Radagast, then I make it a priority to stack what I need on Preparations, and put it back in my deck. If my opponent doesn't have the means to triple, then obviously I can just concentrate on moving quickly.

Me: 1-2, 2-3, 3-6, 6-9.
Opponent: 1-3, 3-5, 5-7.

Without Pathfinder you might get:

You: 1-2, 2-3, 3-6, 6-7.
Opponent: 1-3, 3-5, 5-7, 7-9.

According to procedure, I should have a preparations out by the time I move from 3-6, with the opponent currently at site 5. At that time, based on what I've observed the opponent do, I decide whether I need to go ahead and get ready to throw some shadow stuff back in my deck that turn, or whether I can pretty much ignore him. Heck, if he's sitting at site 5, then he's already lost, right? He's only going to get one more turn, and he's probably not going to be able to quadruple.

Not the First Halfling: Easy to build tokens, prevents overwhelming.

I think all my gear is more reliable than tokens, and makes them nearly impossible to overwhelm.

Deep in Thought: Discard Small Hope.

I've got an elf event for this.

Roll of Thunder: Discard Easterling Polearm and kill Easterling Captain.

I've got an elf event for Sauron stuff like Grond, but this is indeed a weak point. I shall have to consider a countermeasure! Although, when I think about it, my ability to take off burdens in the Skirmish phase might really be all the countermeasure I need.

Gandalf's Staff: Emergency Easterling Survival.

True, but too tough to get that combo out with my setup.

Kill Frodo: No burdens, Sam takes the Ring and I can still play No Help for It.

How about I just DON'T kill Frodo instead! And my setup doesn't use No Help For It, nor does it discard Smeagol.

BTW, it's surprising how many games I've played with my OWN Easterlings where opponent doesn't take the last option. I've overwhelmed 3-5 companions in a single turn when all they needed to do is pass the ring on to neutralize the threat.

The threat can be neutralized by taking off burdens in skirmish.

[Kralik]

The threat can be neutralized by taking off burdens in skirmish.

I don't think so. In my normal Easterling deck I routinely have 10-20+ spare twilight. Think of Easterling Captain, Easterling Regiment, and 2x Raider Bow. If you try to pump Smeagol with burdens in order to remove burdens, you're only giving them the tools to be stronger. With the incredible twilight you're already generating, I don't see how you can avoid being overwhelmed. In the playback I watched, if your opponent had Easterlings, they would have been looking at multiple fierce fighters + about 30 or more starting twilight to work with (aside from ambush bonuses) at site 4. If they didn't have the tools they needed (eg. Easterling Polearm) they could wait a site or two and take advantage of Radagast's cycling help. I typically have at least 1x each Raider Bow, Easterling Captain and Easterling Polearm by 4, though.

[sgtdraino]

All good points. Sounds like what I really need is better possession removal. Take out the polearm on captain, kill him with Archery, and that's all she wrote.

But Roll of Thunder is not presently an option. Other means of possession removal?

[Legion]

Not a lot, really.  I can see hides really messing you up thanks to all the twilight you generate.   That said, I imagine hides does very well against the original if you manage to get 2 out at once, thanks to only 1 Roll of Thunder per turn.

[Kralik]

Not a lot, really.  I can see hides really messing you up thanks to all the twilight you generate.   That said, I imagine hides does very well against the original if you manage to get 2 out at once, thanks to only 1 Roll of Thunder per turn.

One of the reasons I think clogging is so essential. If I'm playing against a difficult matchup, I often don't play Shadow cards even if I can. You'd be surprised how many decks this messes up. I used to get a lot of opponents complaining about "bad draws" and a "handful of Free Peoples" but it's really just poor cycling not luck.

[sgtdraino]

Okay, I think I have an option, at least for Easterling Captain:

Citadel of the Stars. I can exhaust Easterling Captain with Slaked Thirsts, finish him off with Citadel of the Stars, Smeagol can then do his thing with Not Listening. Everybody heals, get back COTS with Sixth Level in Regroup, reload Slaked Thirsts, rinse and repeat.

The same procedure would work with Dunland, though I can only guarantee killing off one (worst) minion per move.

Massive twilight is only really generated for a single turn. As long as I survive that turn, should be okay thereafter.

[Kralik]

Okay, I think I have an option, at least for Easterling Captain:

Citadel of the Stars. I can exhaust Easterling Captain with Slaked Thirsts, finish him off with Citadel of the Stars, Smeagol can then do his thing with Not Listening. Everybody heals, get back COTS with Sixth Level in Regroup, reload Slaked Thirsts, rinse and repeat.

The same procedure would work with Dunland, though I can only guarantee killing off one (worst) minion per move.

Massive twilight is only really generated for a single turn. As long as I survive that turn, should be okay thereafter.

Good idea. Maybe use that site 3 that lets you play fortifications? (Base of Msomething?)

[civ4master]

10U117

[sgtdraino]

Say, that's a great idea!

[sgtdraino]

Here's a couple new game links for this deck! The first is me playing against Kralik himself!

http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=sgtdraino$lcs2le45l7eepvdm

I lost this game, primarily because I FORGOT to use Lembas in regroup to get my healing cards into my hand before I moved! Due to that, I wasn't able to triple on my third turn.

And here I am playing against Drako:

http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=sgtdraino$zjuvwb382eu6nkvd

I won this one, but got a nasty surprise on my 4th move: Shelob came out and made it so Smeagol couldn't skirmish the whole turn! Didn't think of that one!

ETA:

Here's another replay link, from a player who wishes to remain anonymous:

http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=sgtdraino$hfsf4g1lvx3yag9t

Another win, but alas Gimli fell prey to Enquea at site 5! I'd forgotten that King Block has that no-heal site, and I exhausted Gimli loading Preparations before I moved there. And so, he was killed, and no more Slaked Thirsts for the rest of the game! Tell you what, that is when Might of Numenor saved my butt from another Enquea!

ETA some more: Here's another game, this one with picnic:

http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=sgtdraino$vq2voj9suwpkq4c8

I won, but this one was very tough! Got a bad first draw, and was not able to start the build until turn 2/site 2, when I finally drew a bilbo on turn 1 Regroup. My opponent was playing Sauron/Enquea, with some pretty good condition discard. He never got rid of Birthday Present, but he quickly murdered Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas! Somehow I still managed to beat him to the end, with Not Listening and 2x The Shire Countryside keeping a few guys alive.

ETA yet again:

Here's a game I just played with NeMa:

http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=sgtdraino$lweudczzyiu0meas

Near-perfect run, with a great first draw (got Birthday Present AND Bilbo). The only problem was my own fault, when I used These Are My People before I had played out Elrond, and so I couldn't play any of my Lembas! Thankfully I was able to just play Elrond, use a Dear Friends to get a Lembas, and use Elrond to put it in my hand. Which gives me food for thought: I guess I probably don't really need 4x Lembas in the deck. After I use it during a turn, there's nothing else in my draw deck to draw. So, theoretically I only need 2x, not 4x. This of course assumes I am able to move as quickly as possible, and am not stopped short for a turn. It also assumes none of my Lembas gets discarded by Corsairs or whatnots. Maybe 3x Lembas would be the best compromise. My opponent was actually using Corsairs this game, and ditched Aragorn's bow. I saw the writing on the wall before this happened, and had already Dear Friends-ed These Are My People back into my deck, figuring I'd probably need it again (which I did).

[neopium]

Here's another replay link, from a player who wishes to remain anonymous:

http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=sgtdraino$hfsf4g1lvx3yag9t

Another win, but alas Gimli fell prey to Enquea at site 5! I'd forgotten that King Block has that no-heal site, and I exhausted Gimli loading Preparations before I moved there. And so, he was killed, and no more Slaked Thirsts for the rest of the game! Tell you what, that is when Might of Numenor saved my butt from another Enquea!

Thanks for not revealing my identity, I'm still ashamed of this pathetic loss

[sgtdraino]

Dude! You're blowing your cover!

[dmaz]

I had a fun game against Jamascus using your deck idea
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=dmaz$0pgx8qbxjp509xue

I know the deck has the potential to be "unstoppable" once you get everything out, but its dependent on way too many variables for me.

1. Your opening hand.
If you don't get either of the dwarf conditions in it, you need to choose between preparations or rises. This slows you down already. Let's assume you do get what you need for fellowship but you don't have any of your Constantly Threatenings. Now you need to tread carefully to make sure you don't discard them all using Rises. If you get down to three discarded, then you need to wait, which slows you down. If you discard them all you are left to hope that your opponent doesn't realize that your entire shadow at this point is now a farce, and they don't outrun you. There are many more move limit enhancers other than just Durin's Secret.

2. Whether or not your opponent plays heavy condition control.
The companions are basically exertion utility tanks. If you lose your Countrysides, you can't guarantee any kind of triple moving since they won't heal in regroup. Thus you need to wait to cycle them all from your discard pile again during the next fellowship phase.

So in answer to your initial question, no I don't think it's broken at all. It's a really cool, clever idea!
Any "uber" strategy comes with a cost, and I think that the downsides to this deck are fair.