Hideaways, Tombs, Monuments & Lookouts

[Thranduil]

I know, it's another of Thranduil's crazy DC threads... But I really need to bounce some ideas off you guys.

I've been thinking a lot about sites recently (which shows you how exciting my life is at the moment! ). And I have some rather strange ideas. What do you think? They'll be a lot of mechanics in this post - hopefully they're clear.

First, site loaded keywords. I can't decide whether they should go exclusively on sites, or exclusively on pseudo-sites (you'll see what I mean in a second) or a mixture of both. I have 3 ideas for this. Let's go from straightforward to less so:

•Balin's Tomb
Tomb. Underground. (You may only use this card's game text while there is at least 1 card in your dead pile).
Skirmish: Exert your companion to make him or her strength +1 and damage +1.

First one is standard. Any other ways to use the dead pile for this? I'm not convinced by what I've got.

•Heneth Anûn
Hideaway. Lake. (Once in play, this card can never leave play).
While you can spot an unwounded companion, each minion here is roaming.

So it's currently worded in a weird way. This is because it's currently open to pseudo-sites as we'll see in a second. Basically on sites this means it can never be replaced. If you try to replace it with another site, you fail.

•The Redhorn Gate
Mountain. Monument. (This card's game text is always active).
The move limit cannot be increased.

Sites are always active, but site's game texts are only active when you're at that site. This breaks that rule, similarly to Mount Doom actually. It might be errata'd to a monument in fact.

Okay, so those are sites, but what about those pseudo-sites I'm going on about? By that I mean conditions that represent sites (there are many of these in Towers and King representing Frodo & Sam's journey eg. The Dead Marshes, Cliffs of Emyn Muil). Can those keywords find their way onto other cards?

•Hidden Pass (SH)
Condition • Support Area
Hideaway. (Once in play, this card can never leave play).
Any phase: Remove 2 threats to play a minion from your discard pile.

•Tomb of Gilraen
Condition • Support Area
Tomb. (You may only use this card's game text while there is at least 1 card in your dead pile).
Regroup: Discard the top 2 cards of your draw deck to heal Aragorn.

•Minas Tirith Battlements
Condition • Support Area
Fortification. Monument. (This card's game text is always active).
To play, spot 2 knights.
Other conditions and possessions may not be discarded from play.

Obviously all these ideas are very sketchy - don't take too much stock by the current flavour, I just quickly threw together some cards to exemplify these mechanics.

Okay, that's all well and good (kind of...). What about using sites as something comparable to cards in your hand?

•Lórien Shores
River.
Lookout - Regroup: Discard your follower to heal your companion. (If this site is in your adventure deck, you may reveal it to use this ability. Limit once per turn).

So as long as you don't actually play this site, you can get some benefit out of it.

What do you guys think?

These are all very tentative; feel free to tell me they're a pile of crap if that's what they are!

Thranduil

[Sam, Great Elf Warrior]

Sites are always active, but site's game texts are only active when you're at that site. This breaks that rule, similarly to Mount Doom actually. It might be errata'd to a monument in fact.

Technically, I think Mount Doom's text is only active while you're there, it just has an effect that lasts until the end of the game. So if one player plays Mount Doom with Pathfinder in regroup, then stops, the next player can replace it with his own Pathfinder as long as no one's moved there yet.

[Sam, Great Elf Warrior]

As for the cards, some of them are really powerful and could be gamebreaking for too many decks. I'd tone them down a bit.

Conversely, a card that's both a hideaway and a monument would be interesting, but its effect would have to be fairly minor to keep from being gamebreaking (e.g. "Shadow: Remove a threat to add (limit )." on a unique card). And can a non-site be a Lookout (in which case you'd reveal it from your draw deck for the effect)?

By the way, "Anduin Somewhere" could be Shores of Lorien.

[Thranduil]

Sites are always active, but site's game texts are only active when you're at that site. This breaks that rule, similarly to Mount Doom actually. It might be errata'd to a monument in fact.

Technically, I think Mount Doom's text is only active while you're there, it just has an effect that lasts until the end of the game. So if one player plays Mount Doom with Pathfinder in regroup, then stops, the next player can replace it with his own Pathfinder as long as no one's moved there yet.

I'm not sure about that, but I have no evidence to back up my claim other than gut feeling!

As for the cards, some of them are really powerful and could be gamebreaking for too many decks. I'd tone them down a bit.

Well like I said, I just cobbled them together to show off the mechanics. I want feedback on the overall concept much more than the cards themselves which will be sorted out, both flavour- and balance-wise.

Conversely, a card that's both a hideaway and a monument would be interesting, but its effect would have to be fairly minor to keep from being gamebreaking (e.g. "Shadow: Remove a threat to add (limit )." on a unique card).

I had thought of that! Don't worry!

And can a non-site be a Lookout (in which case you'd reveal it from your draw deck for the effect)?

Draw deck no - that seems quite broken to me, and hard to police given there's no chance of its game text being active while it's in your draw deck. Hand, on the other hand, is a different story, and what I intended. In fact I thought of the idea for normal cards first (it's like Forecast or Channel from MTG, for those who are interested as to my inspiration) then applied it to sites.

By the way, "Anduin Somewhere" could be Shores of Lorien.

Good idea.

[Cw0rk]

These are all good ideas. However, I feel like sites shouldn't have loaded keywords. Maybe I'm a bit too conservative. Those DCs are well done except that I don't understand why you want to have the Monument keyword on Minas Tirith Battlements (it doesn't need to be there),

[Gate Troll]

I know, it's another of Thranduil's crazy DC threads... But I really need to bounce some ideas off you guys.

I've been thinking a lot about sites recently (which shows you how exciting my life is at the moment! ). And I have some rather strange ideas. What do you think? They'll be a lot of mechanics in this post - hopefully they're clear.

First, site loaded keywords. I can't decide whether they should go exclusively on sites, or exclusively on pseudo-sites (you'll see what I mean in a second) or a mixture of both. I have 3 ideas for this. Let's go from straightforward to less so:

•Balin's Tomb
Tomb. Underground. (You may only use this card's game text while there is at least 1 card in your dead pile).
Skirmish: Exert your companion to make him or her strength +1 and damage +1.

First one is standard. Any other ways to use the dead pile for this? I'm not convinced by what I've got.

I'd probably put Tomb in after Underground since both words have a period after them. For a few seconds there I was wondering why you had to have had a death to use an Underground site, and what exactly a Tomb did.

•Heneth Anûn
Hideaway. Lake. (Once in play, this card can never leave play).
While you can spot an unwounded companion, each minion here is roaming.

So it's currently worded in a weird way. This is because it's currently open to pseudo-sites as we'll see in a second. Basically on sites this means it can never be replaced. If you try to replace it with another site, you fail.

I don't quite get whether the (Once in play, this card can never leave play) wording belongs to the Lake or the Hideaway. Aside from that the ability seems too powerful. How about "While you can not spot a wounded companion each minion here is roaming."?

•The Redhorn Gate
Mountain. Monument. (This card's game text is always active).
The move limit cannot be increased.

Sites are always active, but site's game texts are only active when you're at that site. This breaks that rule, similarly to Mount Doom actually. It might be errata'd to a monument in fact.

In all honesty, I think this would work better if it weren't a Monument. I know the point is to brainstorm some new keywords, but this just doesn't fit with the site.

Okay, so those are sites, but what about those pseudo-sites I'm going on about? By that I mean conditions that represent sites (there are many of these in Towers and King representing Frodo & Sam's journey eg. The Dead Marshes, Cliffs of Emyn Muil). Can those keywords find their way onto other cards?

•Hidden Pass (SH)
Condition • Support Area
Hideaway. (Once in play, this card can never leave play).
Any phase: Remove 2 threats to play a minion from your discard pile.

I like this. It has the functions of a site without actually being a site. I love the idea of Gollum or Shelob popping out of a hidey-hole to cause some trouble.  

•Tomb of Gilraen
Condition • Support Area
Tomb. (You may only use this card's game text while there is at least 1 card in your dead pile).
Regroup: Discard the top 2 cards of your draw deck to heal Aragorn.

Nice flavor.

•Minas Tirith Battlements
Condition • Support Area
Fortification. Monument. (This card's game text is always active).
To play, spot 2 knights.
Other conditions and possessions may not be discarded from play.

I can't see much use for this card. If your opponent wants to discard a condition and possession from play, if he can't target anything else he'll just discard this card. You might as well pack an extra copy of the card you don't want discarded. That and it would stop you from discarding your own conditions and possessions: Rohirrim Bow, Salt from the Shire, Frodo's Cloak, Black Sails of Umbar, Elven Brooch, Vile Pit, Morgul Blade, etc.

Obviously all these ideas are very sketchy - don't take too much stock by the current flavour, I just quickly threw together some cards to exemplify these mechanics.

Okay, that's all well and good (kind of...). What about using sites as something comparable to cards in your hand?

•Lórien Shores
River.
Lookout - Regroup: Discard your follower to heal your companion. (If this site is in your adventure deck, you may reveal it to use this ability. Limit once per turn).

That seems all right.

So as long as you don't actually play this site, you can get some benefit out of it.

What do you guys think?

These are all very tentative; feel free to tell me they're a pile of crap if that's what they are!

Thranduil

No, not crap at all. I wish we could some sort of PC set up...

[Sam, Great Elf Warrior]

•Minas Tirith Battlements
Condition • Support Area
Fortification. Monument. (This card's game text is always active).
To play, spot 2 knights.
Other conditions and possessions may not be discarded from play.

I can't see much use for this card. If your opponent wants to discard a condition and possession from play, if he can't target anything else he'll just discard this card. You might as well pack an extra copy of the card you don't want discarded. That and it would stop you from discarding your own conditions and possessions: Rohirrim Bow, Salt from the Shire, Frodo's Cloak, Black Sails of Umbar, Elven Brooch, Vile Pit, Morgul Blade, etc.

Actually, I think you could still use the abilities of cards like Black Sails of Umbar, you just wouldn't have to discard them, which could cause some broken combos with, say, Loyalty Unshaken. All of the other cards that prevent discard and keep cards in play (as opposed to, say Earthborn or Countless Companies, which stack them) specify that that discard has to be by someone other than the card's owner. Maybe you should do the same here, e.g., "Each other condition and each possession may not be discarded from play (except by its owner's cards)."

[Gate Troll]

No, I think discarded the card is part of using the ability, Its either all or nothing. Thats just my 2 cents.

[Sam, Great Elf Warrior]

No, I think discarded the card is part of using the ability, Its either all or nothing. Thats just my 2 cents.

But abilities aren't all-or-nothing. You can use an ability even if you can't perform all (or any) of its effect (with one narrow exception). For example, you can play Defend it and Hope, even if the only minions have Broad-bladed Swords.

If discarding the card is an effect, then you can use the ability even if the card can't be discarded. The only way you can't use the ability is if discarding it is a cost, but it would seem a bit odd to put a cost in a separate sentence at the end of an ability.

Of course I doubt the issue has ever come up, because I'm not aware of any card that prevents a card from discarding itself.


EDIT: Now that I think about it, Minas Tirith Battlements as written would also be broken with "temporary" conditions like Seeking New Foes, Numenor's Pride or a combination of Killing Field, Lorien is Most Welcome, and multiple Blades Drawn.

[Thranduil]

That combo with Blades Drawn is really funny, but yeah - it would be sorted out! Like I said, overall concepts not the cards themselves.

Do you want to see another Lookout card?

•Mauhúr, Relentless Tracker
Minion • Uruk-hai
Str: 7
Vit: 2
Sit: 5
Damage +1. Tracker.
If the fellowship has moved more than once this turn, Mauhúr is strength +3.
Lookout - Regroup: Spot 3 trackers and remove to make the Free Peoples player move again if the move limit allows. (If this card is in your hand, you may reveal it to use this ability. Limit once per turn.)

Again, it's probably broken as #$&*@!. But you can see the concept. This one might be better:

•Anborn, Silent Ranger
Companion • Man
Str: 6
Vit: 3
Res: 6
Ranger.
You may play Anborn any time you could play a skirmish event.
When you play Anborn, you may wound a roaming minion.
Lookout - Maneuver: Spot a ranger to make a minion's site number +2 until the regroup phase. (If this card is in your hand, you may reveal it to use this ability. Limit once per turn.)

Maybe they should be limit once per site?


Also, a perhaps better example of a monument:

•Library of Orthanc, Ancient Repository
Artifact • Support Area
Monument. (This card's game text is always active).
To play, spot your minion.
Each player may hold a maximum of 10 cards in his or her hand when he or she reconciles.

[Anvar]

My thoughts:

Tomb - very evocative flavour and allows some very powerful effects both for FP and Shadow player. I think there is a lot of potential here. Might be better as a callout keyword, ie: Tomb: While you have a card in the dead pile you may...

Hideaway - not a fan of cards that can never go away, seems uninteractive to me. Perhaps a different way of protecting it - ie you can pay some amount of twilight to keep it in play?

Monument - I like the idea of a card that continues to work through both players turns. Some good potential here for mirrored effects.

Lookout - seems way too easy to be broken, while also seeming unfun. An ability that rewards you for not playing cards doesn't seem like the best way forward. Perhaps if it discarded the card as [part of the cost then it would work as an alternate way of playing a card, but then it wouldn't work for sites. Not sure of this one.

[Thranduil]

Tomb - very evocative flavour and allows some very powerful effects both for FP and Shadow player. I think there is a lot of potential here. Might be better as a callout keyword, ie: Tomb: While you have a card in the dead pile you may...

That's what I was worried about. I thought about your version of the tombs but that wouldn't quite work for sites (though maybe it would? It would be like stacking minions on sites you control...) (NB. Tomb was a keyword used by Anvar, meaning: "Cards stacked here count as being in your dead pile"). In fact, can you send me all the stuff you had for Paths of the Dead? I was looking at some of it yesterday and I was really intrigued what I could do with it.

Hideaway - not a fan of cards that can never go away, seems uninteractive to me. Perhaps a different way of protecting it - ie you can pay some amount of twilight to keep it in play?

Not a bad idea here. Though in the same set as Legendary (which I'm strongly considering)? (NB. Legendary is a keyword I experimented with for a while, meaning: "If an opponent is about to discard this card, you may pay to prevent that. If this card would go to the discard pile, it goes to the dead pile instead") Or perhaps they could become Hideaway (for the first half of legendary) and Legendary (to mean it just goes to the dead pile).

I do however prefer static sites that can't be replaced than cards that can't be discarded.

Lookout - seems way too easy to be broken, while also seeming unfun. An ability that rewards you for not playing cards doesn't seem like the best way forward. Perhaps if it discarded the card as [part of the cost then it would work as an alternate way of playing a card, but then it wouldn't work for sites. Not sure of this one.

While like I said, it's like Forecast from the Azorius Guild, and it functions in a similar way to those cards - just as you generally want to forecast to boost the effect of the card when you actually play it, that's what it's doing here. But there's no reason it couldn't have slightly different functionality on cards in your deck and sites: i.e. it could discard from your hand and just go back to your adventure deck.

Thranduil

[Sam, Great Elf Warrior]

But there's no reason it couldn't have slightly different functionality on cards in your deck and sites: i.e. it could discard from your hand and just go back to your adventure deck.

Considering sites can't be discarded, but instead go back to your adventure deck when they leave play, I think that difference would be justifiable.

[Gate Troll]

That combo with Blades Drawn is really funny, but yeah - it would be sorted out! Like I said, overall concepts not the cards themselves.

Do you want to see another Lookout card?

•Mauhúr, Relentless Tracker
Minion • Uruk-hai
Str: 7
Vit: 2
Sit: 5
Damage +1. Tracker.
If the fellowship has moved more than once this turn, Mauhúr is strength +3.
Lookout - Regroup: Spot 3 trackers and remove to make the Free Peoples player move again if the move limit allows. (If this card is in your hand, you may reveal it to use this ability. Limit once per turn.)

Again, it's probably broken as #$&*@!. But you can see the concept. This one might be better:

By the time you get the point where this would be broken your opponent is probably already hosed anyway. I like it.

•Anborn, Silent Ranger
Companion • Man
Str: 6
Vit: 3
Res: 6
Ranger.
You may play Anborn any time you could play a skirmish event.
When you play Anborn, you may wound a roaming minion.
Lookout - Maneuver: Spot a ranger to make a minion's site number +2 until the regroup phase. (If this card is in your hand, you may reveal it to use this ability. Limit once per turn.)

Maybe they should be limit once per site?

Looks alright. These cards are sort of like events that return to your hand, so the ability seems balanced enough.

Also, a perhaps better example of a monument:

•Library of Orthanc, Ancient Repository
Artifact • Support Area
Monument. (This card's game text is always active).
To play, spot your minion.
Each player may hold a maximum of 10 cards in his or her hand when he or she reconciles.

I like this card, though it affects all players equally. How about, "You may hold a maximum of 10 cards in your hand when you reconcile."? Then up the cost to or something like that.

[Thranduil]

Thanks all for your ideas and comments!

I will work on this and at some point return to it.

In the meantime, any further thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thranduil