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Author Topic: Interest, timing and the plan of changes...  (Read 4132 times)

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March 06, 2011, 06:19:25 AM
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hrcho

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Interest, timing and the plan of changes...
« on: March 06, 2011, 06:19:25 AM »
Several times now, new topics have been started which address the possible changes in LotR TCG only to start discussions whether or not those changes should even happen. It has been mentioned that only Tbiesty is pushing all this and pushing it too fast. Let's see how true that statement actually is.

Do you, folks and fellow players want those changes? Or want some of those changes? How much time should pass between discussions and/or polls and/or implementations of those discussions/polls?

I must give credit to Tbiesty for trying to lead this thing and pushing it forward, but I also must say that I agree with those who say that it's going too fast.

We need to organize things. Let's use this topic to see what do we actually want, when do we want to do it, how we want to do it and then actually do it.

Before you all go yelling what, when, where, how... let's go one by one.

First WHAT?

What do we want to do with all these House Rules and Dream Team? What is our goal? We want to enhance the gameplay, make it more fun, provide more options. I want see how many people are actually interested in this. So far, we have begun discussing virtual cards, unbanning X-ed cards, creating new formats and addition of some already existing cards to some already existing formats.

What do you people want? I'm imploring as many GCCG players as possible to get involved because this is all done mostly for GCCG and if you have an opinion (and I know you do), please say something. If just few people who want to see some changes start something and there is noone to disagree, you kinda lose the right to #$&*@! about it when everything is over. The fat lady has sung her song.

SO GET INVOLVED NOW!

As Uncle Sam likes to say: WE WANT YOU!
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March 06, 2011, 07:03:04 AM
Reply #1

Not a Zombie

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Re: Interest, timing and the plan of changes...
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2011, 07:03:04 AM »
I think it'd be cool to get some new cards, be that unbanning or V sets. I don't have the time or energy to help beyond that though
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March 06, 2011, 08:41:22 AM
Reply #2

TheJord

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Re: Interest, timing and the plan of changes...
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2011, 08:41:22 AM »
GCCG is the 'house' that we all play in, but regardless, there will always be the option to play official Decipher formats. Deciding on our own house rules would happen if we all met physically, but the internet means we can discuss the issues 24/7, not just when we meet up to play.

As long as everyone gets a chance to weigh in on discussions that they feel will affect them, I think we will be able to give the game a fresh look.
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March 06, 2011, 09:33:33 AM
Reply #3

uncle_elrond

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Re: Interest, timing and the plan of changes...
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2011, 09:33:33 AM »
As far as I'm concerned, I really applaud the idea of trying to add things to the game to keep it alive and fun.  That being said, I think we should concentrate on one thing at a time.  Take one thing and get the people to approve it and then wait a while to see how it works in practice before moving on and doing something new.  The V-Cards are a good idea, but trying to come up with new ideas for them while deciding on whether or not to unban some X-Listed cards is probably doing too much too soon.  Finish one project before beginning another.  If we do a good enough job making the V-Card set, maybe the people who are opposed to some of the changes will start to trust what we're doing.  If we can make a strong opening, then the other changes we try to make will probably go over a little better.

Just my opinion though.

March 07, 2011, 01:19:44 PM
Reply #4

TheJord

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Re: Interest, timing and the plan of changes...
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2011, 01:19:44 PM »
I'm also of the opinion that this has significantly increased the amount of interest in TLHH and LOTR TCG. Slowing down has also slowed down that interest.
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March 07, 2011, 01:55:03 PM
Reply #5

Jerba

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Re: Interest, timing and the plan of changes...
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2011, 01:55:03 PM »
Since nothing has actually been "done" at this point besides cement a gentleman's agreement (LR banning) I'm not concerned about the progress or the speed. Lets keep it going. Discussion is good but lets keep moving.

March 07, 2011, 03:11:04 PM
Reply #6

FM

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Re: Interest, timing and the plan of changes...
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2011, 03:11:04 PM »
I don't know how to put it, now that there are already some people working on a V set, but I wanted to actually suggest the V-Set came to a stop for now, and you instead made a DIFFERENT V-Set first, one that actualy adresses all the trouble we're having with discussing banning/unbanning. Take the Movie Block X-List (where most of the work is concentrated anyways), add in Galadriel, Lady Redeemed that you guys x-ed, and turn THAT into a V-Set. You don't have to issue a ton of errata or have people keeping track of bannings/unbannings, you get support for the idea of a V-Set (as being one that is actually fixing a lot of things and not really altering the game), you end up fixing the problematic cards anyway and it's just cleaner. Anyway, just a thought.

March 07, 2011, 03:40:29 PM
Reply #7

Tbiesty

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Re: Interest, timing and the plan of changes...
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2011, 03:40:29 PM »
I don't know how to put it, now that there are already some people working on a V set, but I wanted to actually suggest the V-Set came to a stop for now, and you instead made a DIFFERENT V-Set first, one that actualy adresses all the trouble we're having with discussing banning/unbanning. Take the Movie Block X-List (where most of the work is concentrated anyways), add in Galadriel, Lady Redeemed that you guys x-ed, and turn THAT into a V-Set. You don't have to issue a ton of errata or have people keeping track of bannings/unbannings, you get support for the idea of a V-Set (as being one that is actually fixing a lot of things and not really altering the game), you end up fixing the problematic cards anyway and it's just cleaner. Anyway, just a thought.
That's a pretty cool idea, FM.

March 07, 2011, 06:30:49 PM
Reply #8

FM

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Re: Interest, timing and the plan of changes...
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2011, 06:30:49 PM »
It's just a way more easier and elegant solution to a lot of the trouble we're having with implementing changes, not to mention a way to jump-start working on actually designing cards to see live play.

March 08, 2011, 02:21:36 AM
Reply #9

hrcho

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Re: Interest, timing and the plan of changes...
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2011, 02:21:36 AM »
I believe that was actually the original idea, but we later decided to go with underused cards instead of X-ed ones and left X-ed cards for errata. It's all in the V-set discussion. Although we haven't encountered much trouble regarding the first V-set (except for the lack of input on how playtesting went), there has been a lot of sparks regarding X-lists and banning/unbanning cards.

Maybe it would've been best (as we actually already agreed during V-set discussion) if put X-lists and everything concerning them aside for a while (at least until we finish the first V-set).

Even though House Rules Team and The Dream Team are technically comprised of different people (except for myself), the same people are involved in both and even though it's two separate sections, it's creating confusion. So, I suggest we take one project at a time for now, no matter if it's from The Dream Team or from The House Rules, although more than one project at a time suits me fine so long as it's nothing radical (and meddling with X-lists is).

Let's continue with the first V-set. If that goes smoothly, we can always begin something else simultaneously. I will also soon post a poll regarding those five Promo cards just to see what people think about it, since I didn't receive the feedback I expected from the discussion.
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March 08, 2011, 05:52:22 AM
Reply #10

Tbiesty

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Re: Interest, timing and the plan of changes...
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2011, 05:52:22 AM »
I have no problem with waiting to implement what gets discussed in the unbanning discussions until the first V-set #1 is complete.  In fact, perhaps we can actually use V-set #2 to implement the unbanning.

I also see no reason why we cannot "talk" about these unbanning changes (i.e. have ideas written down for what we should do when the time comes). We can just create a subforum of "House Rules" called "Unbanning discussions" and put all of it there so it doesn't clutter up the rest of "House Rules". That way we can discuss as much as we want (since all we would be doing at this point is discuss what we plan to do later) without people saying things are "going too fast".

Would this be acceptable?

March 08, 2011, 06:38:36 PM
Reply #11

FM

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Re: Interest, timing and the plan of changes...
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2011, 06:38:36 PM »
Well, as I'm not directly involved in any project, although I do support the idea, I just want to give my 2 cents, as organizing, implementing and evaluating changes, progress, "measuring the unmeasurable" is pretty much what I specialize in my field of work (and I'm one of the few who do so, so it's actually a bit bizarre to some of my co-workers). I'm just saying, as a first experience, the whole V-set idea has a fundamental flaw, in that it does not actually adresses problems the playing community has other than no new cards, while it could either adress the huge issue of overpowered, un-fun cards, simply by correcting them or making a countermeasure to them (not the best idea, but still, I'd rather start here than "oh, this is fun design, let's try this" - and I actually support fun design!, which comes to say my point of view as a whole). But by all means, do what you think is best, as I said, I'm not directly involved in this, just interested in seeing it succeed.

March 09, 2011, 02:32:39 AM
Reply #12

hrcho

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Re: Interest, timing and the plan of changes...
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2011, 02:32:39 AM »
Well, as I'm not directly involved in any project, although I do support the idea, I just want to give my 2 cents, as organizing, implementing and evaluating changes, progress, "measuring the unmeasurable" is pretty much what I specialize in my field of work (and I'm one of the few who do so, so it's actually a bit bizarre to some of my co-workers). I'm just saying, as a first experience, the whole V-set idea has a fundamental flaw, in that it does not actually adresses problems the playing community has other than no new cards, while it could either adress the huge issue of overpowered, un-fun cards, simply by correcting them or making a countermeasure to them (not the best idea, but still, I'd rather start here than "oh, this is fun design, let's try this" - and I actually support fun design!, which comes to say my point of view as a whole). But by all means, do what you think is best, as I said, I'm not directly involved in this, just interested in seeing it succeed.
Actually, we didn't want to mess with OP card because not everyone considers them OP and who's to say which card is OP and which is not? If you followed those several discussions we've had so far, you could've noticed people complaining about cards such as Shotgun Enquea, Sam, SoH, Cirdan, Castamir of Umbar... some consider those cards OP, others do not. That creates a lot of battleground and it's difficult to agree upon things - that's radical as I mentioned earlier.

And we didn't want to go with X-ed cards, because we haven't yet honestly agreed upon the action we will take upon them. Whether it will be House Rules job to create an errata or will The Dream Team make a V-set out of them.

So we decided to go with underplayed or non-played cards. That way we still get the desired effect and no can really claim those cards are not good candidates (not to mention that the old versions of those cards remain to be used and played).

Also, FM, please don't exclude yourself from this. You are directly involved in this because you are a member of TLHH and what's more, you are a GCCG player. Things would've been much better if more people are directly involved as you are and not just come to the voting when it's happening.

I also see no reason why we cannot "talk" about these unbanning changes (i.e. have ideas written down for what we should do when the time comes). We can just create a subforum of "House Rules" called "Unbanning discussions" and put all of it there so it doesn't clutter up the rest of "House Rules". That way we can discuss as much as we want (since all we would be doing at this point is discuss what we plan to do later) without people saying things are "going too fast".

Would this be acceptable?

It seems like a good idea to me.
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March 22, 2011, 04:43:13 AM
Reply #13

Thranduil

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Re: Interest, timing and the plan of changes...
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2011, 04:43:13 AM »
I would very much agree on concerns with speed. I think, while we need to keep people's interest, it's also important to realise that we're not on a deadline! We have a lot of time to discuss and think about our decisions, so I don't see why we shouldn't use it. Of course, that's no reason not to discuss desired changes, but it does mean that we perhaps shouldn't be so eager to come to solutions.

About the V-set discussion...
I consciously and deliberately steered the V-set away from X-ed cards because I do strongly believe that X-ed cards need "fixing" or errata, but that is a completely different concept from the V-cards. V-cards are not made of cards that need "fixing", but are "fun designs", as you put it FM, that help to revitalise the game by bringing in new deckbuilding opportunities. People were getting confused between errata and virtual cards, and so I thought it was important we made as much of a separation as we could. I'm all for errata, but it has absolutely no place, in my mind, in a virtual set.

About the concern of 1 project at a time...
Firstly, as I think hrcho pointed out above, there are quite different people involved in the Rules Team and Dream Team, so I don't see a particular logistical problem with running both discussions simultaneously. I can see that perhaps it gives a mixed message to observing players, and maybe that's an issue we should consider.

Secondly, people are talking about abandoning this project for the moment and focussing on the V-set. I think this is entirely the wrong idea! I'm a huge dream card person, and am probably one of the most excited on this board that the vision I and many others have had for years of new LotR cards is finally becoming a sort of reality. But there is absolutely no doubt in my mind which project is more important: and that's the House Rules. How can we be introducing new cards to the format without dealing with the cards and the problems that we have right now? So if we're going to follow only one project, then I 100% think that it should be the Rules Team. V-sets can easily come out from a TLHH team once they're well established.

Thirdly, I think the Rules Team, perhaps more than the Dream Team, will need a strong leader to pull this off—to decide on which discussions to have and which not to have, to work out a timetable, to coordinate. I think this is absolutely vital. Then for sure the rest of the Rules Team and the other players can disagree with the decisions and discuss them, but there just needs to be that overall purpose and coordination that at the moment this project is lacking. (I actually can't remember if there is anyone who was designated head of the Rules Team so I really don't mean to get at anyone!)


I've said a lot (and I tend to type long-windedly!), so in summary:

• We're not following deadlines, we don't need to move quickly.

• Errata and virtual cards are fundamentally different concepts and shouldn't be muddled. Errata are fixing old cards, virtual cards are entirely new cards.

• The Rules Team is going to need very clear direction to get this project working well, and I think that should come from a recognised leader.

• If we are going to work on 1 project at a time, then it should definitely be the Rules Team and NOT the Dream Team.

Thran

March 22, 2011, 04:46:20 AM
Reply #14

Thranduil

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Re: Interest, timing and the plan of changes...
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2011, 04:46:20 AM »
Though of course I forgot to mention that by far (and by far, I mean by a huge ridiculous distance) the #1 thing we need to do to get this project to work is PLAY THE GAME and ORGANISE TOURNAMENTS!

We should of course be discussing all this stuff too, but I think it's important to remember what our priorities have to be at every stage.