Obama Spilling His Military Secret's To The Guy He Wants To Attack

[SomeRandomDude]

Thats the thing isn't. No one wants economic socialism but capitalism only works if people are responsible. What we are seeing now is what happens when the capitalist system is run by irresponsible, greedy or just plain stupid people.

So you trust government more?

Capitalism is the solution to greed. Because greed = competition = lower prices = outwitting the competition = better quality and prices = thriving economy. Or you can get monopolies

Irresponsible and stupid? Yeah, but Congress is worse. I'm more scared of Congress in charge of AIG than the clowns that were there before.

Besides the fact that once we give government power, where does it stop?

[turin08]

Yes I do trust governments more actually. A proper democratic government is in the employ of the people. They are elected by the people and are taken down by the people therefore they are accountable to the people for their actions. They have to stay popular to survive. I do not trust the people on Wall Street and the people who run the big banks. Your point about Greed is only partly correct as it is the greed and irresponsibility of the big banks which has put American capitalism in the mess it now finds itself in. I cannot for the life of me see why you and some others have such little faith in your elected officials and your government.

[SomeRandomDude]

Your point about Greed is only partly correct as it is the greed and irresponsibility of the big banks which has put American capitalism in the mess it now finds itself in.

Correction: It is the irresponsibility of the big banks alone.

The Irony: The GOVERNMENT's "house everyone" plan told the banks to give mortgages to people who can't pay, which started the whole problem in the first place.

The Solution: Get the government out of the free market system. If banks hadn't been forced to make these crummy mortgages by the government in the first place, we wouldn't have a problem.

[sickofpalantirs]

you know whats funny...is how I occasionally look at a liberal forum, and their heads are in the clouds. they insist that obama was perfect mccain sucked, and they don't even realize their heavy biase. I thought both of them scored some good points and did some good stuff, but if anyone came out ahead, I would say it was mccain, by a bit.

[HawkeyeSPF]

Pot, meet Kettle.

[FingolfinFinwe]

Not exactly.   SoP stated that the forums he visited claimed that Obama was perfect and Mccain sucked.  He then stated his own opinion, which was that they "both scored some good points and did some good stuff" and that he thought Mccain barely came out ahead.  Alot different from "Obama was perfect and Mccain sucked." 

[Gil-Estel]

Because greed = competition = lower prices = outwitting the competition = better quality and prices = thriving economy. Or you can get monopolies

And this whole line is the perfect example of capitalism being almost as ideologic as communism. That competition leads to lower prices and higher quality. It is not true, it leads to more greed. And when possible we do it with monopolies.

[Shieldmaiden]

Because greed = competition = lower prices = outwitting the competition = better quality and prices = thriving economy. Or you can get monopolies

And this whole line is the perfect example of capitalism being almost as ideologic as communism. That competition leads to lower prices and higher quality. It is not true, it leads to more greed. And when possible we do it with monopolies.

Well said, g-e.  This whole fiasco with the banks demonstrates this beautifully.  The American people love to shout about how wonderful capitalism is (and I say this as an American), but it is highly flawed.  So is socialism.  From what I've seen, a good combination of both is the way to go. 

I don't understand why so many Americans see socialism as an evil thing.  Perhaps it's because they immediately think of Russia?  Living here in the UK, I have seen many examples of socialism integrated with capitalism and working well. 

Like Turin, I believe it was the greed and irresponsibility of banks that created this mess.  This is what happens when you let them have free rein.  They made horribly bad investments with trillion dollar losses.  Then when mortgage rates started going up, people who had borrowed at subprime levels suddenly could not afford their variable rate mortgages!  Banks had to foreclose and claim bankruptcy.  When it all goes wrong, then the big banks suddenly want the government involved.  Their attitude is: stay out of our business until we need you, then bail us out.  Pah!   

[SomeRandomDude]

Because greed = competition = lower prices = outwitting the competition = better quality and prices = thriving economy. Or you can get monopolies

And this whole line is the perfect example of capitalism being almost as ideologic as communism. That competition leads to lower prices and higher quality. It is not true, it leads to more greed. And when possible we do it with monopolies.

Hence laws restricting monopolies. If there can't be a monopoly, like, say, you get shut down if you form one, then suddenly, there's always competition and always better quality, low price stuff.

Would you rather have a government-controlled monopoly? Who's to stop the government from getting greedy?

The fact is, greed isn't just a capitalist thing, its inherent in every human being. Capitalism simply controls greed and pushes it towards something constructive.

The number one flaw in your argument is that you're intending government to take on a role that it was never supposed to. Government is there to protect the people, not make sure they never have a chance to fail. What woulda happened if your parents never let you fail? Well...I guess the government is able to do that to you for all your life, so let's just go to a welfare state, shall we?

[Pepin The Breve]

The fact is, greed isn't just a capitalist thing, its inherent in every human being. Capitalism simply controls greed and pushes it towards something constructive.

   Wow man, i don´t see any way that capitalism is "controling" greed. I have said before what i think about this so i will not repeat myself, but i think if you try to notice some areas like farmacology, celulose production, informatics and many others we can think (even food) about are really big transnational monopolies (or sort of) and i have to say that they seem very greedy to me, and one of their main goal seems to by whatever means they get acess. Capitalism doesn´t seem to prevent monopolies to occur.

   Maybe this competition (sometimes each one "per se") talk can be true in some cases, but definitely don´t prevent monopoly. Here in Brazil (and in so many countries) even the governament (usually local) stimulate monopoly of the private capital over the state (consequently from citzens).

   Federal police found that Mantecorp was making São Paulo state buy milionary medicin to give it for pacients when they actually don´t need it! Some people have pretty bad health problems because of that. They do that via a corrupt doctor that ordered the prescription without need.

   like many of you said (including i) greed it´s not only a socialism/capitalism problem. Socialism or capitalism aren´t necessary good or bad.

   

[SomeRandomDude]

Actually, there are laws in the US preventing monopolies. Which I'm actually in favor of, to part with my straight libertarian ideals, there needs to be *minimal* government regulation, and monopolies is one of those. Outlaw monopolies and competition follows, thus, I guess, "harnessing" greed into something productive, if you will.

[sickofpalantirs]

Not exactly.   SoP stated that the forums he visited claimed that Obama was perfect and Mccain sucked.  He then stated his own opinion, which was that they "both scored some good points and did some good stuff" and that he thought Mccain barely came out ahead.  Alot different from "Obama was perfect and Mccain sucked." 

thanks for the defence....it just annoys me when either republicans or democrats think their candidate is infallible, the perfect example of a present, actually I take that back...it only really annoys me when they also seem to believe the other candidate is a lying cheating sex offender who doesn't deserve to live...

[AgentDrake]

The fact is, greed isn't just a capitalist thing, its inherent in every human being. Capitalism simply controls greed and pushes it towards something constructive.

Outlaw monopolies and competition follows, thus, I guess, "harnessing" greed into something productive, if you will.

Ever read The Once and Future King? We all know how well diverting greed into constructive endeavors worked out for King Arthur. Le Morte d'Arthur, anyone? As I recall, the final result of the whole mess wasn't a happy ending.

[spam]
I guess we could always revert to a capitalist egalitarian feudalism with imperialist foreign policy.
That might work well.
[/spam]


Oh, and point of clarification: Despite the above pessimism, I personally believe (for reasons I have previously expressed) that the best system is Capitalism as a base system for society, then voluntary socialist-form programs. I can dredge up my old posts if I need to.

[Gil-Estel]

The thing is NB, it seems you see things only black or white. It is or good, or really bad. You are obviously exaggerating when you say that a social government is a pampering one. And capitalism controlling greed? :S It is it's #1 tool!
I agree that government is there for protecting, but also providing circumstances of which the whole society benefits from. They represent us, and their maingoal is to do as we wish. So that means medical care being provided, especially for those who cannot afford good care? I mean, how can you discriminate on health....common!
That means education. #1 must for a healthy country. Let talents flourish and come to great heights.
That means infrastructure, for that is what needed to allow a country to grow.
That means welfare, for as we know: men is egocentric, so we cannot rely on voluntary wellfare, we tend to care only for those we know and love.
And all above isn't a safety system to prevent people from failing, this is -when we go to your example- parents creating the best circumstances. And when you have a disabled child, are you still into this though love of yours?.....

NB seriously, you need to step away from your ivory tower, well, that might be too harsh, no means to offend, but maybe you could add a different perspective...

[Gate Troll]

The thing is NB, it seems you see things only black or white.

That's because thats the way things are.