Proposal: Revamp Gemp Prize Support for Leagues and Tournaments

[sgtdraino]

Since the latest reset and the new fixed Gemp Merchant prices, I think now is the time to take a hard look at the current prize support for Leagues and Tournaments. I have a few proposals:

1: Improve the prize support for All Cards single-elimination tournaments.

At present, you will just about break even if you WIN THE WHOLE TOURNAMENT. The other 7 people will end up with a net loss with the Merchant's 25% buy-back rate and fixed prices. I suggest that this prize support be improved, or else the entry fee for the tournament needs to be lowered. IMO the entry fee and/or prize support should be adjusted so that, if a player manages to win one game, they'll break even on the gold they spent to enter. Of course, with single-elimination, that still means that half of the players will take a loss... but at least there's a fair chance at breaking even or coming out slightly ahead. At present, there's very little incentive to play these at the current prices.

2: Make the prize payout for all Leagues THE SAME.

I have never understood the reasoning behind the MASSIVE payouts for the sealed Leagues, the moderate payout for My Cards Leagues, and the relatively crappy payout for All Cards Leagues. To me it smacks of favoritism on the part of whoever devised the payouts. I believe all Leagues should have the same payouts.

Thoughts? Comments?

[Eukalyptus]

2: Make the prize payout for all Leagues THE SAME.

I have never understood the reasoning behind the MASSIVE payouts for the sealed Leagues, the moderate payout for My Cards Leagues, and the relatively crappy payout for All Cards Leagues. To me it smacks of favoritism on the part of whoever devised the payouts. I believe all Leagues should have the same payouts.

Thoughts? Comments?

You sound like a broken record, really.

Sealed: The highest skill factor. Deal with what you've got. You do good, the rewards will be high.
My Cards: You have to buy the cards in order to play. More time and gold investment is needed (weekly gold, dailys etc.). Higher rewards than All Cards.
All Cards: At your disposal. No investment other than deck building needed.

Simple as that.

[Cthulhu]

What Euk said about the second point.. It makes perfect sense to me, and it was MarcinS who set it so in the first place. .

Only thing I would like to see changed is that the prizes for 4 Series Constructed Leagues need to be increased (both All Cards and My Cards). It doesnt make sense that if you play a whole month, often changing 4 decks in multiple formats, to get the same prize as someone who only played 13 games iin the 1 Series Leagues. And the prizes for 4 Serie All Cards are really really low for a month of play, and make many people lose interest as the series go by if they dont do good, making it hard to find opponents in last series. IMO end prizes for Constructed 4-Series need to be doubled at the very least.

Now the argument CoS gave earlier, is that the more series there are, the more prizes you can get for each win, but this really doesnt help all the newer players, who dont win very often and are mostly relying on the prize for Top 32 to justify their time spent.  And when the said prize is 1-2 boosters for a month of play, its easy to see why so many people lose interest in the long leagues.

1: Improve the prize support for All Cards single-elimination tournaments.

At present, you will just about break even if you WIN THE WHOLE TOURNAMENT. The other 7 people will end up with a net loss with the Merchant's 25% buy-back rate and fixed prices. I suggest that this prize support be improved, or else the entry fee for the tournament needs to be lowered. IMO the entry fee and/or prize support should be adjusted so that, if a player manages to win one game, they'll break even on the gold they spent to enter. Of course, with single-elimination, that still means that half of the players will take a loss... but at least there's a fair chance at breaking even or coming out slightly ahead. At present, there's very little incentive to play these at the current prices.

I agree. Even more so now when you could just buy any promo for just 10 gold, and they never run out of stock, and the most value you can get from any booster barring a foil is 4 gold. (as opposed to the appeal before the reset of getting some mythic rarity-like out of stock Anarion which would net you couple thousand gold, which was the main reason these tourneys happened, as even then their prizes werent exciting) .

No one will play these unless the prizes and/or the entry fee is changed.

[dmaz]

I agree with what you say about the all cards tourney prize system.
That AND I really feel like it was completely unnecessary to make the entry fee for the daily 10g. You could argue for both sides on whether or not its "worth it", but bottom line is, there would be more involvement if the entry fee was either lowered or removed (as it was before). What was the reason for not making it free like it was before?

That being said, I think the prize system for the leagues is well-balanced. This is why I'm primarily attracted to just functioning in leagues as of the reset.

Overall, I'm not completely bent out of shape about the tournament system. While I think it needs to be fixed, I'll still probably get involved at some point in the future, even if it isn't changed. I just won't be quite as motivated to do so.

[sgtdraino]

Sealed: The highest skill factor. Deal with what you've got. You do good, the rewards will be high.

I'd still maintain that the format with the highest skill level for actually playing the game is All Cards, because that is the only one in which the playing field is even for all players, and it's all down to the player's skill at playing the game. Sealed has the highest degree of chance, because the player has no control over the card pool. You may get lucky with your pull, you may not. That is indeed why we have so many illegal entries into the sealed leagues every time we have one: Ridiculous payout combined with the random lottery of the card pull. Perhaps once the prize payout is adjusted, our moderators won't get swamped with violations anymore. Sure, skill is a factor when it comes to creatively building a deck from your limited resources, but ultimately the object and spirit of LOTR TCG isn't to build creative decks that only do well in a limited environment, it's to play the game well. That, ultimately, is the skill that should be rewarded by the prizes in these tournaments.

And ask yourself this: Even if you really believe it takes more skill to do well in a Sealed League, do you REALLY think it takes SIX TIMES as much skill as in an All Cards League? Gimme a break. I played this game for years back when it was alive, and in my experience, Sealed Deck Tournaments were, more than anything else, intended to introduce new players to the game, because the participant got a start for their collection with the cards they got to keep after the tournament was over. Of course, that aspect doesn't even exist in the Gemp version.

My Cards: You have to buy the cards in order to play. More time and gold investment is needed (weekly gold, dailys etc.). Higher rewards than All Cards.

All of which is a way of saying, "If you have more gold, you have a better chance at getting more gold." It hearkens back to the lottery of the former Merchant system, and rewards those who have gold disproportionately to those who don't. Think about it: The current reason that "Trophies" don't count as My Cards, is because the-powers-that-be felt that getting to keep these cards through a reset would give too much of an advantage to the My Cards players who have a bunch of trophies. Well, that perceived advantage is nothing compared to the advantage a My Cards player has over a new player starting up a month or more after that seasoned player has already had time to build up their collection. At this point, especially now that the Merchant is fixed, the most dependable way to get gold is to simply wait for it to accumulate. That means that, more than anything else, My Cards tournaments simply reward the players who happen to have been here the longest... and it rewards them three times as much as an All Cards League with an even playing field. Really?

All Cards: At your disposal. No investment other than deck building needed.

Did you really just say "investment?" Is that was LOTR TCG is? An investment game? Certainly that was the case before the latest reset, but my impression is that we are attempting to move away from lotteries and investment games, and get back to the essence of what LOTR TCG is actually supposed to be: Playing the game, not gaming the system. I hear it all the time in the Game Hall, as advice given to new players: "Join a Sealed League because the payout is really big, and then you can start participating in Dailies to grow your collection." If the objective is to get cards as quickly as possible, that is certainly what you should do... but the only reason that's the way it is, is because that's the way somebody set it up. It's not because of skill, it's not because that's the way it should be, it's just what some guy thought was a good idea at the time.

it was MarcinS who set it so in the first place. .

God bless MarcinS for creating this means for us to play our game online, he did an amazing job... but he's not perfect, he's only human. It was MarcinS who created the old Merchant system which was exploited so terribly until it was finally fixed (and speaking of "broken records," I was one of the ones who was calling for fixed prices from the very beginning as a fairly obvious solution to the problem).  MarcinS was always reluctant to go that route. Why? I believe it was because he liked the investment game aspect of it. That's all well and good, but it's not really LOTR. I'm not here to play an investment game, I'm not here to win the lottery or grow my gold as quickly as possible. I'm here to play LOTR TCG, and I would expect the rewards would be based on how well I play the actual card game. At the very least, the rewards should be even across all the different kinds of Leagues. That is what is most fair, IMO, and it gives players new to Gemp a chance at doing well without having to get a lucky pull in a Sealed League.

Again, let's get away from this whole lottery aspect. That's not LOTR. Huge payouts for Sealed is just a holdover of the lottery, and doing away with that (or making it the same for other Leagues) should lessen the burden of our moderators catching people trying to game the system.

[hsiale]

I'd still maintain that the format with the highest skill level for actually playing the game is All Cards, because that is the only one in which the playing field is even for all players, and it's all down to the player's skill at playing the game. Sealed has the highest degree of chance, because the player has no control over the card pool.

IIRC (that was long ago) out of first four sealed Gemp leagues I finished three times in top 3, and one league where I didn't was when I was offline for nearly whole week and played only 33/40 games because of this (I still finished in top 10). And I remember most names at the top of the results table were repeating themselves in those leagues as well.

[Eukalyptus]

Draino,

I neither have the time nor will to endlessly discuss our points of view. You have a strong attachment to All Cards, which is fine. But you have yet to realize (IMO) that All Cards is just throwing together decks and that's it. My Cards needs time and ranked games, lots of them. You say, that My Cards is unfair to the new player in the long term. Well boo-hoo. Do you want to reset everything every two months, just because a new player showed up? Get real.  Sealed is not only about chance. I've seen lots of players with a bunch of good R cards lose to players without such cards. It's about the skill.

While I acknowledge your standing for the All Cards scene and the concerns and reasons Cthulhu mentioned with 4-series leagues, I get more annoyed with every post you come up with. You're never ever satisfied. You want a thing, you get it, yet you cry about the next thing. Life isn't perfect. One just can't argue with you. You just keep on insisting on your opinion and rarely acknowledge those of others.

Did you really just say "investment?" Is that was LOTR TCG is? An investment game?

You just keep on thinking about the gold factor, while time (which I meant) is an investment, too. You're that blind.

This will be my last answering to one of your posts. If you care to answer mine, be my guest. I won't read it because I simply don't care anymore what you have to say unless you get off your All Cards horse.

[sgtdraino]

IIRC (that was long ago) out of first four sealed Gemp leagues I finished three times in top 3, and one league where I didn't was when I was offline for nearly whole week and played only 33/40 games because of this (I still finished in top 10). And I remember most names at the top of the results table were repeating themselves in those leagues as well.

So, what you're saying is that you tend to see the same names at the top of the Sealed lists over and over.

Surely you would also agree that you tend to see the same names at the top of the My Cards lists? And the All Cards lists?

Of course skill plays a part, that's not the issue. The issue is whether or not skill plays SIX TIMES MORE of a part in Sealed, and THREE TIMES MORE of a part in My Cards. I don't think that any rational person would argue that is the case.

You have a strong attachment to All Cards, which is fine.

I do have a strong attachment to All Cards, because that is the most inclusive format. The format everyone can participate in, with a level playing field. I gather that you have a strong attachment to Sealed and My Cards, and don't want to lose your massive prize payout. I guess I understand that, but I don't think you're looking at the big picture.

But you have yet to realize (IMO) that All Cards is just throwing together decks and that's it.

I'm not sure how you can ignore the logic here. Sure, skill plays a part in all three formats. But the differences between the three are obvious:
Sealed has a limited card pool that is influenced by chance. Thus, skill is mitigated by chance.
My Cards has a limited card pool that is influenced by gold. Thus, skill is mitigated by wealth.
All Cards is the only format in which skill is not mitigated by any other factor, because the card pool is exactly the same for all players.

If All Cards was really just "throwing together decks," then two people using the exact same deck would do equally well. That is not the case, as with the other Leagues, you will tend to see the same names at the top. That is because those people are the most skilled players.

You say, that My Cards is unfair to the new player in the long term. Well boo-hoo.

I take it you are conceding the point. My Cards offers a large advantage to players who have been around longer, and on top of that also gives those players three times the payout of All Cards. Dude, that is simply not fair.

Do you want to reset everything every two months, just because a new player showed up?

No, I simply want the prize payout to be the same among all the Leagues. That way, new players have just as much of a chance to grow their collections as My Cards players.

...well, more of a chance at least, since My Cards players can play in both My Cards and All Cards Leagues.

Sealed is not only about chance. I've seen lots of players with a bunch of good R cards lose to players without such cards. It's about the skill.

I didn't say it was only about chance. What I said was that chance is a larger factor with Sealed, than it is with either of the other formats. That is simple logic, as the cards you must build your deck from are based upon chance.

While I acknowledge your standing for the All Cards scene and the concerns and reasons Cthulhu mentioned with 4-series leagues, I get more annoyed with every post you come up with. You're never ever satisfied. You want a thing, you get it, yet you cry about the next thing. Life isn't perfect. One just can't argue with you. You just keep on insisting on your opinion and rarely acknowledge those of others.

Life isn't perfect, but I believe we should strive for perfection. The current disparity of prize payouts has always been an issue, it isn't just "the next thing to cry about." Did you ever play LOTR in real life? Did you play in tournaments? If so, surely you remember that Sealed tournaments didn't have SIX TIMES the prize support of other formats? That's ridiculous. Perhaps you feel that My Cards duplicates the real life constructed scene, but it truly doesn't, because anyone competing at a tournament level is going to have exactly the cards they want in their deck; singles for pretty much anything were always widely available.

You just keep on thinking about the gold factor, while time (which I meant) is an investment, too. You're that blind.

Did I not just say that those who have spent more time here have the advantage in My Cards events? In any event, competing in events shouldn't be about a "return on investment," it should be about rewarding a player's skill at playing the actual game.

This will be my last answering to one of your posts. If you care to answer mine, be my guest. I won't read it because I simply don't care anymore what you have to say unless you get off your All Cards horse.

Maybe you should care what people have to say. I'll ask again:

What is the purpose of having Sealed pay out SIX TIMES as much as All Cards?

What is the purpose of having My Cards pay out THREE TIMES as much as All Cards?

There's no reason for it, it's simply not fair. The former is a lottery, the latter is a gift to those who've been here longer. I propose the payout be the same for all formats. I see no reason why this would be a bad thing.

Why would this be a bad thing? What are the downsides?

[Ronin_]

I agree with everything Sgt. Draino is saying and he's backing it up with very valid points. Euk your response of "I don't care get over it" is very, very disappointing. By not engaging in discussion and by not laying out a better argument than "I don't like you Draino" is pretty much the worst attitude a moderator can have.

Think about this Euk, what formats are casual games? Which format do most players use the site for? All Card casual games. Why on Earth would you then give out less prize support for a format that everyone plays on a daily basis? All Cards is where you see the most creativity, the most skill, the most difficult plays. It's by far the easiest format to build a deck in but it's the hardest to consistently win at. All Cards is the format where a new player becomes a good player, it is the one that most focuses on playskill and decision-making. To say that it is nothing more than "throwing a deck together" is extremely ignorant and big-headed and I'm pretty sure you are none of those things. It sounds like you just don't like Sgt. Draino so you're determined to disagree with him even though he is so obviously correct.

[Eukalyptus]

Ronin_:

Well maybe I did overreact in my last paragraph. And while I don't hate Draino, I've come to disagree with much of what he's saying. And I do have the feeling that he sits on his opinion no matter what.

How many of those casual players are competing in a league regularly? All Cards is IMO for quick games with cards at your disposal with having to spend little time and no virtual recources to get them. That is the reason All Cards is so popular on a daily basis. It has no cost than building a deck and finding an opponent. And speaking of creativity, I saw the same deck type more in All Cards than I did in My Cards.

Draino:

FIY: I won't return to play so my opinion about prize payouts isn't fueled by my desire to gain as much packs as possible. I don't like the new merchant system. It will result in My Cards being All Cards in a much shorter time span than it did last time. And it makes opening packs even less interesting as it was during the S foil madness.

Yes I did play in tournaments, almost exclusively from King on. And while the prize payout in Sealed wasn't six times as high, it was at least 3 times R wise, not counting the chance for a R foil in a pack. The point you were trying to make is moot, since All Cards didn't exist back then. Yes, cards were widely available, but with different price tags instead of fixed prices. Where you could buy your pool together in a few minutes back then, you have to work for yours now. And that is why My Cards deserves a higher price ratio.

My Cards isn't about fairness to new players. There just can be no such thing. Even if there were just All Cards, you have more experience than a new player, is that fair? No, but you spent time to get it. We were all new players once and had to catch up. And by money more than competing in tournaments. The prices for Hides, Armory, Bowmen etc. were very high, as they should be. I get your frustration about the low prize support All Cards Leagues have, I really do. But calling for an even payout throughout the leagues is just not realistic. Maybe the prizes for All Cards should just be adjusted to a higher level, but not on the same one as Sealed or My Cards. Or I should just lower the entry fee.

[Ronin_]

Both of those ideas are good ones. We should try lowering the All Card single elimination tourney entry fees to 2 gold (so anyone can just sell a crap rare they aren't going to use) and keep the prize support for them the same.

For the 4 series constructed league the prizes could be half what they are for sealed. 30 boosters for winning a 40 game tournament is I think fair and not over-the-top.

[Eukalyptus]

I am just talking about the leagues, I have no control over the dailys and single elimination tourneys.

[Ronin_]

Well lets talk about lowering the entry fee and upping the prizes for All Card leagues! It needs to happen, for so many reasons. I mean what better way is there for a new player to develop their own style and skill? With All Cards they can literally try anything and they can't blame luck for losing and if they do well they get a good amount of prizes. Half the amount of boosters from sealed for all cards. I think it's good.

[sgtdraino]

How many of those casual players are competing in a league regularly?

How many casual players aren't competing in Leagues regularly, precisely because the current system is messed up? I think it's pretty clear that the reason such a massive number of people try to get into the Sealed Leagues, to the point of even trying to cheat the system to get a good pull, is indeed because it has a HUGE payout. Not because it's the best, not because it's the most fun, not because it requires the most skill, simply because it has a huge payout. I guarantee you if you suddenly gave Sealed the prize support that All Cards has, and gave All Cards the prize support that Sealed has, suddenly you'd see a lot of that participation invert, and people would be flocking to All Cards instead... except of course that there wouldn't be as much of a reason to try to cheat the system, since the card pool is always the same.

All Cards is IMO for quick games with cards at your disposal with having to spend little time and no virtual recources to get them.

As you say, that is your opinion. Others of us do not share it. IMO the skill required to play sealed is mitigated by the chance of getting a good card pull. Clearly all those people who try to cheat the system with multiple accounts to get a good pull believe that this is a significant factor. IMO the skill required to play My Cards is mitigated (obviously) by gold accumulation, which favors the older players or anyone who has gotten good at gaming the system. All Cards is the closest thing Gemp has to a serious tournament environment, because, get real, anybody who is trying to win a serious tournament IRL is not lacking some card they wanted for their deck because they somehow couldn't afford to buy the single. IRL, constructed tournament play is, essentially, All Cards play.

That is the reason All Cards is so popular on a daily basis. It has no cost than building a deck and finding an opponent.

The reason All Cards is so popular on a daily basis, is because most people like it, and can afford to play it.

And speaking of creativity, I saw the same deck type more in All Cards than I did in My Cards.

Anecdotal, meaningless. I can just as easily say that I saw the same deck type more in blankety-blank than I did in blankety-blank.

FIY: I won't return to play so my opinion about prize payouts isn't fueled by my desire to gain as much packs as possible.

Then why would you be against making the prize payouts between the different league types more balanced, if not exactly the same?

I don't like the new merchant system.

If you preferred the old Merchant system to this one, then it makes sense why you also prefer these profoundly unbalanced prize payouts. In that case, I'd say you and I have a fundamentally different philosophy of what Gemp should be.

It will result in My Cards being All Cards in a much shorter time span than it did last time. And it makes opening packs even less interesting as it was during the S foil madness.

IMO that was a bad interesting. Clearly you liked the lottery aspect, others did not. As you say, I think it was madness. Perhaps this will result in My Cards being All Cards in a much shorter time span. Frankly, I don't have a problem with that. I'm a proponent of having regular resets that zero all players back to a level playing field again. It seems to me that is why the My Trophies category was created, so that we can zero everyone but have a few special things carry through.

In fact, if you REALLY want to delay the speed at which My Cards turns into All Cards, then you will knock ALL of the prize support down to the same level as All Cards.

Yes I did play in tournaments, almost exclusively from King on. And while the prize payout in Sealed wasn't six times as high, it was at least 3 times R wise, not counting the chance for a R foil in a pack.

I'm looking at the official Decipher tournament rules right now:

http://lotrtcgwiki.com/rules/tournament.pdf

...and Sealed Deck Tournaments appear to have the same K-value (which determines prize support) as other types of tournaments at the same level. Perhaps you are counting the cards that are part of the sealed deck that you purchased in order to participate in the tournament? That isn't prize support. That is something that you bought, that everyone who plays in the tournament gets.

The point you were trying to make is moot, since All Cards didn't exist back then. Yes, cards were widely available, but with different price tags instead of fixed prices. Where you could buy your pool together in a few minutes back then, you have to work for yours now. And that is why My Cards deserves a higher price ratio.

The point I'm trying to make is completely valid. Any player who participated in a serious tournament had exactly the cards that they wanted. They were not lacking a needed card because they were unable to shell out the money to buy a single. Serious tournament play IRL was, essentially, the same as All Cards play is on Gemp. Singles for anything were widely available, and they were not very expensive. Prizes for Leagues and Tournaments should be based on your skill at playing the game, not based on your skill at gaming the system to get a lot of gold or booster packs.

My Cards isn't about fairness to new players. There just can be no such thing.

Granted, there can't be fairness in competition, since in My Cards those with more cards will always have an advantage over those who have less. But it is very easy to have fairness in terms of prize payout: Simply make the payout the same as All Cards. Think about this: You are favoring better prizes for a League Format that, you have admitted, is fundamentally less fair than other formats. It is even less fair than Sealed, since at least with Sealed the chance of an advantage is random. If anything, My Cards should have the lowest prize payout, since it offers the greatest unfair advantage in terms of playing the game.

I get your frustration about the low prize support All Cards Leagues have, I really do. But calling for an even payout throughout the leagues is just not realistic.

Of course it's realistic. Push some buttons and its done. The only reason it isn't done, is because (for whatever reason) you don't want to.

Maybe the prizes for All Cards should just be adjusted to a higher level, but not on the same one as Sealed or My Cards. Or I should just lower the entry fee.

I'm glad to see you finally have some movement on this issue. If I had my druthers, I would make the prize support for My Cards lower than All Cards, because frankly My Cards is more exclusive and therefore less competitive. I would make the prize support for Sealed the same as for All Cards, as that's how it was IRL. HOWEVER, my proposal that all the payouts be the same for all formats is itself IMO a fair compromise position.

Be that as it may, I don't have the power to make any changes happen at all. Six times the payout for Sealed is ridiculous. Three times the payout for My Cards is half as ridiculous. Sealed and My Cards currently run a hand-in-glove relationship that gives All Cards the shaft. ANY movement towards a more even payout distribution would be a step in the right direction. I don't much care about whether All Cards prize support is made bigger, just that the payout is more even between the three types of leagues. I'd be perfectly happy if you made the  prize support for all of them the same as All Cards is now, so the motive for me isn't to get a bigger payout for myself. This is strictly about fairness. Also, I don't care about lowering entry fees, so long as people still think the fee is worth paying to join the league (as is currently NOT the case with All Cards single-elimination). In my view the main problem League-wise is the vastly unequal prize payouts, not the entry fees.

Thank you for your consideration, and thanks for backing me up, Ronin_. I'd still like to hear some more players weigh in on this issue.

[Ronin_]

Again I agree withe everything Sgt. Draino says. And it's encouraging to see you opening up to the possibility of a different system Euk and I understand where you're coming from but it's a place of pure opinion and not objective, I hope you realize this from reading your own arguments. Your opinion is of course valid but that does not mean there is not room for other opinion, other ideas. I think changing the prize support is an idea worth trying.