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October 26, 2014, 05:54:40 PM
Reply #15

dmaz

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Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2014, 05:54:40 PM »
When I suggested set 16, I think maybe you thought I was saying set 14 Wink...

However, I do like the idea of giving a little bit of help to the Gandalf culture, without incorporating any elements that are introduced in outside formats, like threats, tokens, or followers (I know gimli ringbearer has the threat thing for Enhanced TS, but I think that this is very wrong...technically he should only have the option of adding 2 burdens, as threats are nonexistent in that format).

Actually every Set 16 card has a loaded keyword which belongs to Set 8 and onwards: Enduring.

Barrow-Wight Stalker
Candle Corpses
Covetous Wisp
Dead Faces
Spirit of Dread
Undead of Angmar

I don't think a single Lurker card, Of Many Colours, would do more harm to the format than 6 Enduring cards...

I completely overlooked Enduring, thanks for pointing that out!
I would initially be against including them because of this, but seeing as they are a part of the lore, and they have the ability to help Nazgul corruption a little bit (and also add some risk to running an archery deck), I think it should be OK.

Of Many Colors combined with Throne of Isengard can be very powerful, but people can always run a copy of Something Draws Near in their deck :) I actually used this card for a while when the meta was very heavy Palantir/Stupid Swarm, as its the only way to get rid of the Palantir in Fellowship phase so that you can use your Secret Sentinels to get rid of Saruman's Snows haha.

Anyway, even though Throne of Isengard is really strong, there IS a way to get rid of it...

October 28, 2014, 05:43:39 PM
Reply #16

Durin's Heir

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Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2014, 05:43:39 PM »
To everyone reading: Come on folks! What are you waiting for? Get in the talk! We would gladly hear/read your opinions, many of you have ideas to enrich this thread...

To Dmaz: My friend, you haven't said anything about the inclusion of Set 14 excluding OP cards: Grimbeorn, Elladan, Elrohir and maybe Furious Hillman. Set 14 has so many lore consistent cards: Dain Ironfoot, King Brand, Halbarad, Gildor Inglorion... even Grimbeorn and the elven twins but they are too powerful here. Elladan and Elrohir aren't as OP as Grimbeorn, and could very well justify those Shadow additions (The Mouth of Sauron can neglect Elrohir very well, Saruman SotE can kill one or even both without too much problems if uses his Palantir).

Uruk-Hai Healer and Uruk-Hai Scout are consistent too, and wouldn't have too much usefulness. The first is moderately good against archery and huge with machines or Uruk Spear (which are not present), and the latter would only summon 2 site keywords: plains for Black Steed or underground for Cave Troll, Goblin Wallcrawler or The Balrog (not even Dark Places; can even backfire feeding Dwarves)...

Inconsistent cards (with FotR book/movie) would be Duinhir, Duilin and remaining minions: Half-Troll of Far Harad, Horror of Harad, Furious Hillman and Swarming Hillman. Those Gondorians don't seem really powerful, Half-Troll of Far Harad is completely useless and Swarming Hillman just won't survive until regroup often against Gondor. Horror of Harad has too many outsider keywords, and several copies of Furious Hillman might protect swarm shadows; those can be X-listed.

I insist in the point that with the elven twins, the main OP problem is NOT having both on the table mixing their benefits, but being able to have both in the table from the start. If only one of them gets into the X-list, the remaining would be accompained by a Lorien Elf or Merry if played as starting companion...


All in all, IMO only Grimbeorn and Horror of Harad would necessarily be excluded, and could also be excluded Elladan, Elrohir, Uruk-Hai Scout and Furious Hillman. Everything else is either useless or low-powered. Or lore consistent, which I think is the goal.

I completely overlooked Enduring, thanks for pointing that out!
I would initially be against including them because of this, but seeing as they are a part of the lore, and they have the ability to help Nazgul corruption a little bit (and also add some risk to running an archery deck), I think it should be OK.

I really like those Wraiths adding lore to the format. And giving more justifications for Tom Bombadil!
Anyway, they have great problems here as there are only 2 cards in the format that combine directly with Barrow Wights and Dagorlad Deads: Otsea, LoM and Gates of the Dead City.... Those are Wraiths and not Twilight minions... :( Anyway they somewhat share goals and are a subculture by their own. And can use FP archery to their favour :).
I'd add one or two pumps or tricks for them...

The reason I wanted to include [Wraith] Rings is, those help Twilight Nazgul pretty well: Ring of Asperity can wound Frodo directly, Ring of Savagery acts the same as Toldea, Winged Sentry, Ring of Rancor helps Shotgun Enquea (moreover if there are extra burdens). And each can return bearer to hand, allowing a Witchie, LotN almost every turn (that's the reason almost everyone use 4x LotN in their Twilight Nazgul decks)...

Of Many Colors combined with Throne of Isengard can be very powerful, but people can always run a copy of Something Draws Near in their deck :) I actually used this card for a while when the meta was very heavy Palantir/Stupid Swarm, as its the only way to get rid of the Palantir in Fellowship phase so that you can use your Secret Sentinels to get rid of Saruman's Snows haha.

Anyway, even though Throne of Isengard is really strong, there IS a way to get rid of it...

And the Throne has a heavy side cost: strengthens Radagast and Gandalf too much. And Gandy can destroy Saruman with only Betrayal and 2 exertions...

There is another Saruman we can include: Black Traitor. Another splash, but not a fighting one unless you pack his Staff too into the deck, and likely would soak less archery that way... Though I prefer Of Many Colours as it has such a strong lore feeling.

Please comment. Join the talk!
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 08:10:08 PM by Durin's Heir »
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”  - Malcolm X

June 08, 2015, 11:32:42 AM
Reply #17

dmaz

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Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2015, 11:32:42 AM »
To everyone reading: Come on folks! What are you waiting for? Get in the talk! We would gladly hear/read your opinions, many of you have ideas to enrich this thread...

To Dmaz: My friend, you haven't said anything about the inclusion of Set 14 excluding OP cards: Grimbeorn, Elladan, Elrohir and maybe Furious Hillman. Set 14 has so many lore consistent cards: Dain Ironfoot, King Brand, Halbarad, Gildor Inglorion... even Grimbeorn and the elven twins but they are too powerful here. Elladan and Elrohir aren't as OP as Grimbeorn, and could very well justify those Shadow additions (The Mouth of Sauron can neglect Elrohir very well, Saruman SotE can kill one or even both without too much problems if uses his Palantir).

Uruk-Hai Healer and Uruk-Hai Scout are consistent too, and wouldn't have too much usefulness. The first is moderately good against archery and huge with machines or Uruk Spear (which are not present), and the latter would only summon 2 site keywords: plains for Black Steed or underground for Cave Troll, Goblin Wallcrawler or The Balrog (not even Dark Places; can even backfire feeding Dwarves)...

Inconsistent cards (with FotR book/movie) would be Duinhir, Duilin and remaining minions: Half-Troll of Far Harad, Horror of Harad, Furious Hillman and Swarming Hillman. Those Gondorians don't seem really powerful, Half-Troll of Far Harad is completely useless and Swarming Hillman just won't survive until regroup often against Gondor. Horror of Harad has too many outsider keywords, and several copies of Furious Hillman might protect swarm shadows; those can be X-listed.

I insist in the point that with the elven twins, the main OP problem is NOT having both on the table mixing their benefits, but being able to have both in the table from the start. If only one of them gets into the X-list, the remaining would be accompained by a Lorien Elf or Merry if played as starting companion...


All in all, IMO only Grimbeorn and Horror of Harad would necessarily be excluded, and could also be excluded Elladan, Elrohir, Uruk-Hai Scout and Furious Hillman. Everything else is either useless or low-powered. Or lore consistent, which I think is the goal.

I had gotten caught up with life and other pursuits, that I left this topic to rest for too long!

Another FotR thread spurred my interest to get talking about this a little more :)

I had forgotten to address the great set 14 cards that you brought up! I think, as you pointed out, there could be a lot of potential there!

As I generally lean on the conservative side of things, when I see cards like Grimbeorn and think about including them in FotR, I automatically get nervous. However, I think since there will be stronger cards on both sides, we need to playtest these things and see how they do! If they do prove to be too powerful, it would be OK to omit some and allow others as it's a specific format.

There are actually existing formats that have the "additionally allowed" list.

I think Dain, King Brand, Halbarad, Gildor would really add a lot to the meta. I would really love to see Dwarves get a healthy boost in support. Dain and Brand could do that without going TOO far by allowing the Reflections cards (oh my!). And as you noted we could create fun situations that would be more consistent with the lore. Companion version of Thrarin would be neat too (12U15).

Elladan and Elrohir could possibly stay lore-consistent. Were they present at the council of Elrond? It's been so long since I read the books, hehe. In any case, they could be play-tested and see how things go with them...if they prove to be too strong, no problem, just drop them.

Wraiths, and some toys (like the rings perhaps, as you mentioned) would add that extra fun element to keep the FP on their toes - corruption!  We want to include Tom Bombadil a lot, mostly for the lore, and the set just feeling complete with him there. But then our natural fear is Boromir with horn being too powerful. Corruption adds a whole different venue that the FP would need to prepare for. If they can't get Son of Hamfast working for one reason or another, Bombadil winning skirmishes may not be able to do anything for them!

To address the Horn of Boromir, in general, Moria does have the ever-popular Such a Little Thing. This is a great end-all to Boromir if you can get 2 in hand, usually. And as an experienced player recently shared with me, a good Moria deck will have x4 of it  :twisted:
I immediately thought of set 7 Cantea, but I'd like to see if we can find another way to discard possessions without relying on threats. If possible, it would be good if we could avoid the whole threat dynamics in Enhanced FotR. i.e. allow the format to be expanded without bogging it down with too many things intented for later formats.

I'll look into possession control, and a little more about isengard, and report back.





June 10, 2015, 03:09:32 PM
Reply #18

Durin's Heir

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Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2015, 03:09:32 PM »
Elladan and Elrohir weren't present at the Council, but were present at Rivendell in that time just like Merry and Pippin; in the book the Fellowship of the Ring was designed after the Council and not during it. They later went to Rhosgobel to summon Radagast, but found he wasn't at his house and returned to his father (otherwise Radagast might have been one of the Nine Walkers, but Tolkien excluded him, such as Elrond and Glorfindel, probably to give more emphasis to Hobbits and Men instead of supernatural forces like Gandalf, or dwindling races like Elves or Dwarves). So they were present.

It's a good idea to playtest the Elven Twins before deciding if they are overpowered or not, to therefore X-list them. The X-list can help to give shape to this new format, just as the "additional valid" list. But there is another list we might use to prevent OP combos (or reduce the impact of OP cards): the R-list.


The problem of the Horn of Boromir can't be easily handled with the FOTR card pool: you have to discard the Horn, kill Boromir or discard most or all allies to counter it. And the "additional valid" list doesn't help too much, because Shadow cards that discard FP possessions suffer of these issues: they aren't lore consistent (Dunlending Pillager, Corsair Marauder, Grond HotU, Wormtongue, Where Has Grima Stowed It) or rely on new game mechanics (Cantea, Faster than Winds); I can't recall a [Uruk], [Isengard], [Moria], [Sauron], or [Wraith] card of later sets that doesn't have such problems, though I can be wrong 'cause I'm not an expert and don't play anything past set 10. So, to counter the Horn of Boromir we have:

- [Isengard] can try to discard the Horn with Isengard Smith (but will have huge troubles to survive unexhausted to the Regroup phase) or kill Boromir with Saruman SotE and some strong, preferably fierce guy like Lurtz (or Saruman SotE himself, with his Staff and his Throne); discarding Armor with BtHoM will be key. To discard/kill allies they have nought.

- [Sauron] can try to kill Boromir with Hate, You Bring Great Evil and Enduring Evil, or discard/kill allies with Memory of Many Things and Tower Assasin. They can't discard possessions.

- [Moria] can try to kill Boromir with, as you correctly say, Such a Little Thing. Or with Frenzy (such an underrated card, if he exhausts himself to summon some allies, you can force him to fight a strong Goblin or a high vitality Goblin bearing a Moria Axe :twisted:). They don't have anything to discard possessions or non-Dwarf allies (Goblin Warrior), so killing "The Great Warrior" (as Uglúk named him) is the only thing Moria can do.

- [Wraith] can discard the Horn with Beauty is Fading, or try to kill Boromir with many tricks (Blade Tip, Shotgun Enquea, Toldea MoM with a Nazgul Sword :twisted:), or discard/kill strong fighter allies with Fear, Attea The Easterling, The Nine Servants of Sauron (hobbit hospital) and Their Power is in Terror. They are clearly in advantage to the other Shadow cultures.

If all those hard efforts to directly discard the Horn finally hit the nail, the FP player can just play another copy in a further Fellowship phase. Unless the Horn of Boromir is added to the R-list. If we do that, the Horn will be only a piece of the engine in "Fighting-allies" FP decks; the other pieces would be events: One Whom Men Would Follow for everyone (a legal way to summon Tom Bombadil in Movie Block), and Support of the Last Homely House and Swan Ship of the Galadhrim for [Elven] allies. And good-old Thrarin, Dwarven Smith.

So we can add the Horn of Boromir to either the X-list (removing a strong lore consistent card) or to the R-list. But allowing 4 copies of it will be too unbalanced I think.

The R-list can make OP cards more bearable to the opponent. I firmly believe that Savagery to Match Their Numbers and Saruman, KoI SHOULD be R-listed, not X-listed in Movie Block, but that's another discussion. The only cards that can't be reduced in power when added to the R-list are companions that can be part of the starting fellowship, because you don't have to draw them in order to play them. That leaves only 2 options for Grimbeorn: totally allowed, or totally forbidden.

The R-list can turn discard decks even more powerful, as a strategy that relies on a card with a single copy will be destroyed if that card unwillingly hits the discard pile ;). I'd add No Stranger to the Shadows to the R-list, given the power increase to Gondor and the need of less choking mechanisms to allow stronger and more expensive Shadow strategies to work.

In respect of Forces of Mordor, I'd vote for its remotion from the R-list. That's another way of making the [Sauron] culture stronger.



In respect of Reflections, there are so many things that correspond to TTT or ROTK, or to past ages like Elendil, that would be absurd to allow that whole set to be used. Nonetheless, there are some good cards that we might make "additionally valid" (or allow the Set 9 to be used with a swollen X-list including Elendil, Isildur, Gil-Galad, Dwarven Lords and Rings...):

- Bilbo BoTB will be awesome in FOTR Block.
- Boromir BoC, as a regular companion, will be very interesting I think (Troop of Uruk Hai + Saruman KOI? Just discard it! ;)).
- Host of Moria can bring new blood to the Goblinses.
- Gollum DaD and the Nazgûl Rings, as we talked before.
- Library of Orthanc? Ithil Stone?
- Elven Rope? Knife of the Galadhrim? Merry's Dagger and Pippin's Dagger? (Only the Elven Rope is truly lore-consistent, and unless the Knife is used to give Halbarad a weapon, Aragorn doesn't need more toys)
- Radagast. SENT BACK (Kamikaze Gandy)! Frodo + Gandy decks will thank the inclusion of Sent Back.
- Scroll of Isildur. Narsil, BotF (without Elendil and Isildur, will be a vitality enhancer for [Gondor] guys like Boromir SoD, in fact he's handling that sword in the picture); Strider carried only one weapon in Bree in the book, and was the hilt of a broken sword...

Andúril FotW, and perhaps Andúril STWB (though the vitality bonus worries me with Aragorn's Bow). I know that those aren't part of Reflections, but Andúril is part of the FOTR book. LORE CONSISTENT. Maybe Aragorn Strider, as it's very lore consistent too (Boromir/Halbarad + Aragorn as starting felowship).

EDIT: Added more spices to the soup, so read it again you lazy guy! Just joking, but added more things about the R-list.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2015, 04:19:41 PM by Durin's Heir »
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”  - Malcolm X

June 10, 2015, 04:53:10 PM
Reply #19

Durin's Heir

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Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2015, 04:53:10 PM »
Sword of Minas Morgul can discard the Horn, but you must play Lemenya, this card, and Lemenya must be skirmishing Boromir...

Some cards of further Sets that can discard the Horn (without using new cultures or new game mechanics):

- Loathsome
- Morgul Answers
- Gorbag's Sword (but requires a [Wraith] Orc)
- Twisted Tales (but requires [Isengard] Men)
- Iron Fist of the Orc (but requires [Isengard] discarding Orcs, or several copies of The Trees Are Strong. Or Fires and Foul Fumes)

Some cards that counter (or get benefit from) fighting allies:

- Uruk Stalker (if you kill an ally)
- Banished on Boromir, more or less.
- Come Down (but requires more [Isengard] archers than just Orthanc Assassin and Lurtz)
- Ranks Without Number!!!

Ranks Without Number can counter the whole Horn thing, as far as it stays on the board. But given all the condition discard power in FOTR, that won't happen often.

Of all those mentioned, I'd consider adding:

- Loathsome
- Morgul Answers
- Iron Fist of the Orc
- Uruk Stalker
- Ranks Without Number.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 12:54:58 PM by Durin's Heir »
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”  - Malcolm X

June 10, 2015, 06:27:07 PM
Reply #20

dmaz

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Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2015, 06:27:07 PM »
Lot's to address!

I'll take on the whole Horn of Boromir thing to start!

Great detective work with all of those cards. The only ones I had come across were mostly the Isengard men ones as well as Loathsome.

Something I needed to remind myself was that when Horn of Boromir was originally made, they knew that there would be potential to have an ally fighting that could win a lot of skirmishes, assuming no pumps on the shadow side. Given, Elrond isn't a Tom Bombadil, but he still can take down his fair share of minions.

I think with the existence of Fear for Nazgul, Memory of Many Things for Sauron, and Such a Little Thing for Moria, when combined with confluence being around, this gives enough defense for those shadows to take care of a horn deck, even with The Master about.
....the only thing lacking support is Isengard. And you pointed out Ranks Without Number, which would be an excellent addition! I really support putting that on the Additional Valid list :)

There's also the fact that you must either remove 2 burdens or 2 threats to play Tom Bombadil. Since there won't be threats, this would mean that if he gets discarded once, the FP would need to get creative to add more burdens carefully. If the shadow isn't archery or corruption that would mean putting frodo in a skirmish, which could be risky. This is all assuming that Frodo doesn't start running around at site 2 with 4 burdens, but that would risky to begin with for them :)

I'd like to think that we are trying to bring a lot of the lore from the literature to FotR; I'd even say that might be my main goal in developing this Enhanced FotR format. One could argue that giving Tom Bombadil the ability to essentially fight outside of his "realm" would actually be against the lore...which is true...though we've also seen hobbits beat down the Balrog in FotR format, which is very much against the lore as well....so maybe we could say we are just helping include cards that are consistent with the lore....what you do with them in the game is another thing haha :D

Like you mentioned, Elladan and Elrohir could be playtested, and I would love to playtest Radagast as well. For playtesting we'd need MarcinS to create another "test" format like he did for Towers Standard for us. Hopefully after he launched the TS Sealed, we can get him to make an open testing format for FotR where skies would be the limit for us to try all kinds of things.

I'll have to catch up a little more on the rest later!

June 11, 2015, 02:11:43 PM
Reply #21

Durin's Heir

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Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2015, 02:11:43 PM »
About the Horn... I searched through the Gemp deckbuilder for [Uruk] and [Wraith] cards of Set 11 and onwards that might discard FP possessions, without using new game mechanics, and found nought.

But found a problem regarding Ranks Without Number: Elrond (preferably HtGG) + Vilya. That condition is unique and thus to counter it you don't need to discard it, is enough to just return it to hand. And Elrond with Vilya can easily do that. Elrond HtGG is the main fighting ally in FOTR block Horn decks, and won't be removed by Tom Bombadil but instead will be joined by him :o. So it's not a definitive solution :(. Adding the Horn to the R-list can reduce it's impact in the format.

[Isengard] will have the new tricks for Saruman, and if Boromir doesn't bear an Armor (or BtHoM discards it), Servant of the Eye can assign someone to kill him (and Throne of Isengard can make that fighter fierce if it isn't by itself). But if we consider the previous paragraph Ranks Without Number won't be the solution most of the times. :-S

Lemenya, Winged Hunter can discard the Horn by returning Boromir to hand (if happens to get through to the regroup phase unexhausted; Ring of Rancor? 3x or 4x All Blades Perish?).

Don't forget about Frenzy for [Moria], it's an awesome surprise in archer decks (or against directed archery decks, easily you bring down a Greenleaf out of the blue ;)). It's even better in Southron + Moria decks in Movie Block or (better) TS, as the exerting Southron archers pave the road just before Assignment phase :twisted:... 2 copies are enough.


About an "open" format with FOTR sites, in the meanwhile we can playtest using the Revised Towers Standard format, restraining ourselves to only FOTR block + "additionally valid" cards. It will be the same except for using TTT sites.


I'm waiting to see what you think about the R-list and those lore-consistent Reflection cards...

EDIT: Dmaz, found another issue we must decide. Should RB skirmishes be cancellable?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 12:55:10 PM by Durin's Heir »
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”  - Malcolm X

June 17, 2015, 06:18:21 AM
Reply #22

sgtdraino

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Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2015, 06:18:21 AM »
If you ask me (which you didn't), Ring-bearer skirmishes shouldn't be cancellable, period. Decipher applied that rule to all formats, including Fellowship Block. Gemp just likes to do their own thing on that one.
"I would have followed you, my brother... my captain... my king." - Boromir

June 17, 2015, 06:50:51 AM
Reply #23

dmaz

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Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2015, 06:50:51 AM »
If you ask me (which you didn't), Ring-bearer skirmishes shouldn't be cancellable, period. Decipher applied that rule to all formats, including Fellowship Block. Gemp just likes to do their own thing on that one.

This is an open discussion. We are asking everyone :)

After reading the comprehensive rulebook that came out Shadows-era, it did say that this rulebook replaces all other rulebooks.

I also read this there which was placed as an example:
"If Frodo is the Ring-bearer, you cannot use Frodo's
Cloak to cancel his skirmish ("...add a burden and
discard Frodo's Cloak to cancel a skirmish involving
Frodo.")"

Because Frodo's Cloak specifies that the skirmish would only be cancellable in Towers sites, it can be inferred that Decipher is refering to a game being played on the Towers site path (either Towers or TS).

I think it's quite possible that you are right in the assertion that Decipher intended for RB skirmish not to be canceled for all formats.

However, the purpose of playing on GEMP is to recreate the experience of each format, as it was designed and not as Decipher mutated it. I think that, for purpose of the experience, skirmish should be cancellable in every format where Decipher originally allowed it to be cancellable.

Enhanced TS you don't allow canceling because of the alternate ringbearers. Basically, most see the introduction of the alternate ringbearers as the moment in which RB skirmishes weren't allowed to be canceled, for various reasons.

If we don't include the alternate ringbearers in Enhanced FotR, I think by all means RB skirmishes should still be cancellable.

June 17, 2015, 07:08:34 AM
Reply #24

dmaz

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Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2015, 07:08:34 AM »
About the Horn... I searched through the Gemp deckbuilder for [Uruk] and [Wraith] cards of Set 11 and onwards that might discard FP possessions, without using new game mechanics, and found nought.

But found a problem regarding Ranks Without Number: Elrond (preferably HtGG) + Vilya. That condition is unique and thus to counter it you don't need to discard it, is enough to just return it to hand. And Elrond with Vilya can easily do that. Elrond HtGG is the main fighting ally in FOTR block Horn decks, and won't be removed by Tom Bombadil but instead will be joined by him :o. So it's not a definitive solution :(. Adding the Horn to the R-list can reduce it's impact in the format.

Personally, I think, as Enhanced TS functions, the purpose of creating the format is to enhance it with new cards more than change and revise what already exists.
Really the only thing that would make the Horn any different than it already is is the addition of Tom Bombadil. However, the cards provided in FotR that already deal with Horn decks (mostly ally discard) I think are sufficient. It all depends on the meta.
It's very very possible that everyone will want to have fun with the Balrog-killing Bombadil deck at the release of the format, but if that is the case, everyone will be packing multiple copies of cards to shut it down...there is a balance. Basically, I think that we can enhance the experience without changing what already exists in fotr.

[Isengard] will have the new tricks for Saruman, and if Boromir doesn't bear an Armor (or BtHoM discards it), Servant of the Eye can assign someone to kill him (and Throne of Isengard can make that fighter fierce if it isn't by itself). But if we consider the previous paragraph Ranks Without Number won't be the solution most of the times. :-S


I DO really like the addition of Saruman's Staff and Throne. A fierce Servant of the Eye can kill Boromir after he's exerted to allow the allies to fight. Really, Servant of the Eye is an excellent way for Isengard to kill Boromir regardless of his staff or not. You just need minions.

Don't forget about Frenzy for [Moria], it's an awesome surprise in archer decks (or against directed archery decks, easily you bring down a Greenleaf out of the blue ;)). It's even better in Southron + Moria decks in Movie Block or (better) TS, as the exerting Southron archers pave the road just before Assignment phase :twisted:... 2 copies are enough.


Another good, overlooked card :)

About an "open" format with FOTR sites, in the meanwhile we can playtest using the Revised Towers Standard format, restraining ourselves to only FOTR block + "additionally valid" cards. It will be the same except for using TTT sites.


Coding it wouldn't be hard. I would do it once I see MarcinS make his first round of adaptions on the stuff I already submitted.

I'm waiting to see what you think about the R-list and those lore-consistent Reflection cards...


I do agree that for Movie block, there are many things that could have been R-listed instead of X-listed.
For this format, I don't think adding any particular FotR block card to the R-list would be necessarily beneficial.

As for cards lore-consistent. I'm pretty much on the same page as you there, I'd say. It would be really fun to incorporate a few reflections cards to the "additional valid" without going overboard. I'm going to post a breakdown of my opinions on the cards one by one and you can tell me what you think, if I'm onto something or way off hehe  :lol:

EDIT: Dmaz, found another issue we must decide. Should RB skirimishes be cancellable?

Can see above :) Also this goes hand in hand with the R-list thing. I don't think it's necessary to modify the cards or rules that are within the already-functioning format, as long as we don't add too many new mechanics.
As always, this will require playtesting :D
« Last Edit: June 17, 2015, 11:56:52 AM by dmaz »

June 17, 2015, 07:13:35 PM
Reply #25

Durin's Heir

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Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2015, 07:13:35 PM »
If you ask me (which you didn't), Ring-bearer skirmishes shouldn't be cancellable, period. Decipher applied that rule to all formats, including Fellowship Block. Gemp just likes to do their own thing on that one.

Draino, at several times we called other guys to join. Welcome! You honour this discussion with your presence, please keep contributing to the development of this new format. But you must sit at the back of the bus... :lol:

Regarding RB skirmishes:

1. Long version: In FOTR block those can be cancelled but the circumstances that allow it are very limited: sites 1 to 5 with events, fighting a Nazgul with a condition, or be in a fierce skirmish with 3 or more vitality and an ally. If we add Tom Bombadil to the mix, the limit of sites will be pushed to site 8, and that's too much I think. And Tom is much harder to counter than most allies, as ally-wounding tricks barely scratch him (and he'll get healing from Goldberry + river sites; potentially sites 2, 3, 6, 7, 8 and 9), so discarding him is the only real counter.

2. Short version: Totally agree, they SHOULDN'T be cancellable.

For this format, I don't think adding any particular FotR block card to the R-list would be necessarily beneficial.

Tom Bombadil is too powerful to not consider some modifications to the format (X-list or R-list some card). He'll change too much the dynamics of the format, bringing trouble in at least 3 different fronts:

1. He cancels skirmishes involving Hobbits, until site 8.

2. He's a terrific fighter in case the Horn of Boromir or One Whom Men Would Follow allow him to fight. Not only his base strength is 14 + bonuses, but his vitality 9 makes him able to survive 2 defeats against The Balrog ToFaS + The Balrog's Sword (damage +3, strength 20). Saruman will never defeat him due to the lack of pumps (with the Throne and his Staff he'll be only strength 13; Of Many Colours reduces strength to companions only). And his huge vitality will soak too many arrows... In Movie block there are stronger and cheaper minions to face, but a 16/17 fighting ally (worse than a str 14 Supergorn) will nullify or destroy almost anything in his path (Lurtz + Lurtz's Sword, Cave Troll + Hammer, Shadow Archery, Witch King + Pale Blade...).

3. He removes 2 burdens each time he's (re)played. That's troublesome 'cause discarding him is the only real counter, and knowing that any Fighting Allies deck will pack 3 or 4 copies of Tom Bombadil, and the FP player can add burdens at his/her will with Hobbit Farmer + The Prancing Pony to be always able to play him (and that's a perfect site 1 to start with Boromir and Merry).

Those 3 points are my reasons to consider Tom Bombadil and his associated cards (Horn of Boromir, OWMWF, perhaps Hobbit Farmer) worthy candidates for the R-list. As said above, he will change deeply the dynamics of the format. Unless we do something about.


The R-list is a powerful, non-extremist tool we can use to give a correct shape to this new format.

Also this goes hand in hand with the R-list thing. I don't think it's necessary to modify the cards or rules that are within the already-functioning format, as long as we don't add too many new mechanics.
This quote is to reinforce my arguments posted above.

As always, this will require playtesting :D
Playtesting will be key. It's the only known method to separate speculation from certitude. :up:
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 12:55:47 PM by Durin's Heir »
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”  - Malcolm X

June 18, 2015, 05:13:49 AM
Reply #26

dmaz

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Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2015, 05:13:49 AM »
I definitely agree that Tom Bombadil is something that could potentially be way too powerful. We will definitely be able to see through playtesting.

Like you suggested with Grimbeorn, Bombadil is of a nature where he's either included or he's X-listed.

I'm not sure if making him an R-list card would necessarily solve the issues that you brought up, but we can test to try and see :)

The skirmish canceling thing may be one of the bigger issues. Note that you do need to have Merry or Sam still around to use it, but it might skew the format too much, which is something we don't want to do.

Skirmish canceling in Fellowship is too much a part of the original format to just throw that out altogether for wanting to force one card into the enhanced version of the format. Thus if Tom proves to be just too strong with his cancelling, it's more reasonable to throw him away than throw away the established format altogether.

It would be nice to see him in the enhanced fotr, consistent with the lore...maybe playtesting will prove it's ok, but we'll have to see...

June 18, 2015, 04:43:55 PM
Reply #27

Durin's Heir

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Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2015, 04:43:55 PM »
Like you suggested with Grimbeorn, Bombadil is of a nature where he's either included or he's X-listed.

Hmmm, Grimbeorn and Bombadil are very different in a point: if you R-list Grimbeorn he'll still be playable as starting companion. But you can't start with an ally, and Practically Everyone Was Invited cannot play him like AWINL does with [Gandalf] guys. The R-list has a great potential to dam the power of excessively strong cards, but was seldom used by Decipher before the Expanded format; overlooked I guess.

The only cards that can't be reduced in power by R-listing them are unique companions that can be played from draw deck at the start (via starting fellowship and sites 1 like The Prancing Pony or Green Dragon Inn). 'Cause you need one copy in play, and you don't need to draw it. Other type cards that can be played from deck at site 1, like Bill the Pony by Sam Faithful Companion, can still be nerfed a lot by R-listing them, because a possession, condition or ally is much easier to discard than a companion.

So R-listing Grimbeorn is totally pointless. Unlike Bombadil... But Grimbeorn establishes a dichotomic bifurcation, and instinct tells me he'll be excluded after playtesting :(. For the sake of good gameplay!


I think that the Horn of Boromir and Tom Bombadil must be considered for the R-list.

The Horn's role can be done by OWMWF (and SotLHH and SSotG with [Elven] allies) while you still don't draw it, so Fighting Allies decks can still go on, but the comparative advantages of the Horn (doesn't clog your hand, usable multiple times, +3 strength for each exertion) will be reduced a lot. That's very important if Bombadil is included. And indeed I want him to be included.

R-listing Tom will limit the burden removal trick (otherwise, you can peel 4 burdens by (ab)using him twice with Anduin Confluence) and that's a good thing, and reduce the power of the skirmish cancelling skill. And make him a mere addition to Fighting Allies decks, instead of the main weapon of the engine.


If I had to decide to R-list only one, the Horn without a doubt. Even without Tom you can summon very strong allies like Elrond, Celeborn and Uruviel. Elrond is base strength 8, while Celeborn and Uruviel can be reinforced to base strength 10 and 9 (with Lothlorien Woods and the Mirror); and there's always Asfaloth for further abuse. The Horn can counter Beatdown, Swarm and even Archery shadows very efficiently. And there's always Thror's Map and Pathfinder to prevent a specific site 7 from ditching them all.

Boromir can be healed by himself (DoMT), Aragorn KiE (LoG) or Elrond HtGG (any)... and now by Halbarad, which is very useful in double moves.

Skirmish canceling in Fellowship is too much a part of the original format to just throw that out altogether for wanting to force one card into the enhanced version of the format. Thus if Tom proves to be just too strong with his cancelling, it's more reasonable to throw him away than throw away the established format altogether.
Non RB skirmishes will still be cancellable, whatever decision is taken. So you can still send good old Pip towards The Balrog in the Bridge, and Hobbit Stealth him in the nick of time ;).

Now, regarding RB skirmishes, I think we are adding enough powerful tricks to balance the denial of cancelling them. [Shire] will get Goldberry and (hopefully) Tom, and (hopefully again) Bilbo BoTB. Goldberry is almost useless in absense of rivers, and King Block has only 1 river (Anduin Banks*), so this is her debut and she'll prove herself very mighty; you can even Pathfind the feared Tol Brandir just to move to a site 9 river and use her +5 strength pump, while Fearing the Worst can nullify it's disadvantage :twisted:. Bilbo + Pippin FtF can make [Shire] tales and PEWI an unbearable pain to the Shadow players; Bilbo won't need to cancel the skirmish, it will be enough to not be overwhelmed (Blade Tip will be useless to him, if he bears CWW and isn't the RB).

And Bilbo can be allowed as the only Alternative Ring-bearer, in case Hobbits don't get enough protection and boosting with those 3 [Shire] cards. And remember this quote:

"'Very well, very well, Master Elrond!' said Bilbo suddenly. 'Say no more! It is plain enough what you are pointing at. Bilbo the silly hobbit started this affair, and Bilbo had better finish it, or himself... When ought I to start?'"


Other cultures will get enough new power to face strong menaces instead of flying from them with Hobbit Stealth. Or will pack another Hobbit to play the stealth ;).

... I definitely agree that Tom Bombadil is something that could potentially be way too powerful. We will definitely be able to see through playtesting.

... I'm not sure if making him an R-list card would necessarily solve the issues that you brought up, but we can test to try and see :)

... It would be nice to see him (Tom) in the enhanced fotr, consistent with the lore... maybe playtesting will prove it's ok, but we'll have to see...
I too would love to see him present. So playtesting is the right thing to do with the Horn and Tom. Both with and without the R-list.

I preached A LOT for playtesting while we were working the TS Sealed decks ("that old Galilean thing"), but didn't playtested more than 2 or 3 times. Shame on me. Hope I can clean my name this time ;).
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 12:56:22 PM by Durin's Heir »
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”  - Malcolm X

June 18, 2015, 06:31:23 PM
Reply #28

Durin's Heir

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Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2015, 06:31:23 PM »
Elladan and Elrohir could possibly stay lore-consistent... In any case, they could be play-tested and see how things go with them...if they prove to be too strong, no problem, just drop them.

I was thinking about the [Elven] skirmish events available in FOTR block:

- Ancient Enmity (Wow! +1 strength!)
- Border Defenses (+2 strength, or +4 against Lurtz and other archers)
- *Defiance (+2 strength, or +4 against Nazzies)
- Voice of Nimrodel (exert at a river or forest, to cancel a skirmish)

Fortunately, there's no:

- Forearmed (!!); Feathered (!); Flashing Steel; Supporting Fire; Valor; Sword-Wall.
- Fleet-footed; Still Needed; Uncertain Paths.
- Attunement (!); Final Shot (!)...

So with Elrohir on the board, each of them "makes each minion in that skirmish strength -2". Of those, only Defiance is really worrisome I believe. But even in that case, Arwen DoE and Elladan/Elrohir are the same against a Nazgul: Arwen is strength 9, +4 = 13; Elrohir is strength 7, +4, -2 to the Nazgul = 13.

There are some surprising tricks that can be done with Voice of Nimrodel (tale!) + SotBR + burdens + our beloved The Shire Countryside. And now Voice of Nimrodel can be used for an additional goal: exert another Elf at a river or forest (a site 6 ally?) and spot Elrohir to "make each minion skirmishing Elladan or Elrohir strength -2". You can still do the TSC thing by the way...

That's to break down the real chances of Elladan and Elrohir to change the format. Elven decks based on heavy event support would be cool I think...


ADDED: There's also no:

- Glimpse of Fate, Elven Sword and Banner of Elbereth (cycling + initiative abuse)
- Elven Sword and Naith Longbow (fixed strength bonus)
- Shadow Between (cycling + cheap healing)
- Cirdan, The Shipwright, Gil-Galad, Aiglos...

Which reduces a lot the abuse we commonly see in Movie Block with Elven decks.

Also, the only available FP cycling cards are Ottar, Longbottom Leaf and Gwemegil (no generic Elven Sword). And if you start Elladan and Elrohir, Gwemegil can clog your hand if Arwen isn't yet present. At least forces you to pack 3 or more copies of Arwen and Gwemegil, and start cycling somewhat later. That can be important to make extensive decks viable, which would mean less room for non [Elven] events (Elven Bow?) for the Twins.

All in all, they still must be playtested. But the skirmish potential for Elves in FOTR is very limited (in comparison to Movie Block or even TS), and they are miles behind Tom Bombadil and Grimbeorn in my (still theoretical) opinion.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 12:56:54 PM by Durin's Heir »
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June 20, 2015, 06:16:48 PM
Reply #29

Durin's Heir

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Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2015, 06:16:48 PM »
Wraiths, and some toys (like the rings perhaps, as you mentioned) would add that extra fun element to keep the FP on their toes - corruption!... Corruption adds a whole different venue that the FP would need to prepare for. If they can't get Son of Hamfast working for one reason or another, Bombadil winning skirmishes may not be able to do anything for them!

I've been thinking about corruption for a while, and that goal gets an enourmous boost with the new additions. Not only the Nazgul can get The Sword of Flame, Fell Beast, the Barrow Wights and some [Wraith] Rings of Power, but other cultures will get a strong support too.

"'Moria! Moria! Wonder of the Norhtern World!'" Moria will get Gollum DaD to play the dreadful LttG Bomb, but that's not all for [Moria] corruption decks. The 2 additional versions of The Balrog (ToFas and TToKD) can be played at any site, and therefore bring new usefulness to small specific cards like Power and Terror and Must Do Without Hope. Goblin Spear can add burdens with the Cave Troll or those new Balrogs (and Throne of Isengard can make them fierce if needed), or with a goblin and Frenzy (Goblin Spear + Frenzy can recover you 2 burdens just removed by a self-exhausted Son of Hamfast!). With those 3 burden engines working for Moria, it's very likely we'll see Troubled Mountains being played more often.


Corruption Nazzies can benefit too from those additions to the other cultures. There are some [Wraith] decks in FOTR block that get support from The Balrog + Must Do Without Hope at site 5, and now will have the whole sitepath to add those burdens. Gollum DaD helps a lot to exhaust the RB. The Mouth of Sauron can protect Twilight Nazzies (Otsea RiT + Blade Tip, for instance), and Saruman + Throne can make a Twilight Witchie or Enquea fierce while creating another focus of trouble (a str 11 to 13, dmg +1 to +3, fierce minion).

All in all, corruption will be pressing the fellowship very often, so each deck will be forced to not neglect that part of the metagame.

I DO really like the addition of Saruman's Staff and Throne. A fierce Servant of the Eye can kill Boromir after he's exerted to allow the allies to fight. Really, Servant of the Eye is an excellent way for Isengard to kill Boromir regardless of his staff or not. You just need minions.

Fierce minions preferably, if you want to ensure Boromir is dead. That's very important if he's able to survive the first skirmish (he bears an Armor or is unwounded, or with events, Merry FtS or Gandalf tricks). If you use Servant of the Eye, then KoI won't be present to make Uruks fierce, so you will need other tricks like Hunt Them Down, Uruk-Hai Rampage, Uruk Fighter or Lurtz to kill him. Then the Throne of Isengard can make fierce that Uruk or [Isengard] Orc you want to use to erase Boromir!

I'm very glad that you like to include the Throne and Saruman's Staff ;). Saruman fights only in FOTR in the LOTR films, and Decipher could have made him a terrific minion to face, with spells depicting his duel with Gandalf. I really believe his staff should have been a Set 3 card, and Saruman's Ambition should pump any [Isengard] minion instead of only Uruks... but they made him instead a mere 10 strength, 2-card combo guy in the same Set as Eomer, TMoR. Meh...


I just found there IS indeed a pump for Saruman: Bill Ferny. And the Throne can make Ferny fierce, so he can support Saruman in both skirmishes. Therefore Saruman + Staff + Throne + Ferny (strength 17, dmg +2 or +3) can beat Tom Bombadil, as far as Boromir/Aragorn summons Tom only once (strength 16/17)...

As for cards lore-consistent. I'm pretty much on the same page as you there, I'd say. It would be really fun to incorporate a few reflections cards to the "additional valid" without going overboard. I'm going to post a breakdown of my opinions on the cards one by one and you can tell me what you think, if I'm onto something or way off hehe  :lol:

I'm waiting to see what you have to say about those Set 9 cards (and Andúril FotW). ;D
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 12:57:17 PM by Durin's Heir »
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”  - Malcolm X