LotR TCG Wiki → Card Sets:  All 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 → Forums:  TLHH CC

Author Topic: Hybrid Formats  (Read 45164 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

September 02, 2014, 06:15:27 PM
Read 45164 times

dmaz

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Global Mod
  • Posts: 552
Hybrid Formats
« on: September 02, 2014, 06:15:27 PM »
Coming up next week on GEMP, there is going to be an "Enhanced Towers Standard" League.

The format is like this:
Constructed Towers standard: Sets 1-6
And also: Sets 9, 14, 16

I browsed the forums a bit and didn't really find a topic that touched on this kind of "enhanced" or hybrid format, so I wanted to start a discussion related to these.

Have you experimented or played  competitively in any hybrid format before? What did you observe? What other kinds of hybrid formats do you think we could develop that would enhance the playing experience on GEMP? Could we incorporate another type of revised sealed like the movie one we have?

Personally, I'm looking forward to this league, and would like to come up with further ideas for making well-balanced hybrid formats!

September 03, 2014, 06:34:20 AM
Reply #1

bibfortuna25

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Knight
  • Posts: 1531
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2014, 06:34:20 AM »
Since Reflections is included, this means Elves and Dwarves will probably be the most popular FP decks, along with the normal TT standard stuff. Dwarves take a big hit with not having Blood Runs Chill, but they can always splash Elrond/SS.
All cards do what they say, no more, no less.

September 03, 2014, 05:49:17 PM
Reply #2

dmaz

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Global Mod
  • Posts: 552
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2014, 05:49:17 PM »
Since Reflections is included, this means Elves and Dwarves will probably be the most popular FP decks, along with the normal TT standard stuff. Dwarves take a big hit with not having Blood Runs Chill, but they can always splash Elrond/SS.

Having Dwarf Choke + Elf Ally support was something I thought about...you could even splash a shoulder to shoulder for added healing after a double move. Probably a pretty solid choice.

I'm trying to develop a Gandalf/Knight deck. The support for knights without King Block is very marginal, but I'm worried about how tough the Dunland decks will be. Freca + Towers block sites could really hurt! At least with Citadel of the Stars/Stone Tower you have two ways to instantly take down two of their key Dunland guys.

October 19, 2014, 08:11:42 PM
Reply #3

dmaz

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Global Mod
  • Posts: 552
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2014, 08:11:42 PM »
Going to make a thread to discuss the Enhanced Towers Standard format, and the decks that showed up.

Feel free to keep brainstorming here about other hybrid formats!

October 19, 2014, 11:40:50 PM
Reply #4

dmaz

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Global Mod
  • Posts: 552
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2014, 11:40:50 PM »
With the popularity of the Enhanced TS League, I wonder if you could do an Enhanced FotR League...and if so, what would it look like?

I think using the Reflections set 9 would really ruin things for it...although it would be funny to start the adventure with a different ringbearer than Frodo XD

I think Set 16 would be a great addition, and might actually help make Twilight Nazgul a viable strategy, if they could be combined...I didn't see them used at all in Enhanced TS League, probably due to the strength added to certain Towers shadows with Set 9's Freca, Host of Moria, etc.

Something that would enhance the playing experience, from a lore standpoint would be including these certain promos that appear in Set 9, without the whole set 9.
0P50 Glorfindel, Revealed in Wrath
0P51 Radagast, The Brown
0P52 Goldberry, River-daughter
0P53 Tom Bombadil, The Master

All of these characters either appeared in the book Fellowship of the Ring, were mentioned, or could reasonably be assumed to have been there. (unlike including all of set 9 with Sauron pillaging Lorien, etc).

Something I think that would also enhance the playing experience would be including the WETA 5 Card promo set:
0P56 Ghan-buri-Ghan, Chieftain of the Woses
0P57 Radagast's Staff
0P58 Anarion, Lord of Anorien
0P59 Erkenbrand, Master of Westfold
0P60 Tom Bombadil's Hat

Even though Erkenbrand is kind of out of place, he doesn't really pose an overpowered threat, as you wouldn't be able to spot another Rohan man.

My last idea would be to include 1 copy of either or each of these two alternate Balrogs
The Balrog, Terror of Flame and Shadow
The Balrog, The Terror of Khazad-dum

This way, Moria would have MORE Balrogs to choose from, without including the horrible Demon of Might, which would probably ruin the game haha.
While you could play the Set 6 Balrog for almost next to nothing in twilight, he wouldn't be fierce.
Also while the set 12 Balrog is essentially like am unloaded Durin's Bane, allowing you to splash in any deck, it might not be so bad considering the boosts the Fellowships would be getting with new strong cards.

Thoughts, ideas?

EDIT: I just remembered that in the books, it's Glorfindel that actually brings Frodo to Rivendel and not Arwen like in the movies :)
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 11:47:39 PM by dmaz »

October 20, 2014, 03:16:24 AM
Reply #5

Vordan

  • *
  • Information Offline
  • Orc
  • Posts: 26
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2014, 03:16:24 AM »
A nice idea, but to me a possible starting Glorfindel,  might bring to a balance issue because with some exceptions a 9 Str starting companion is a really huge boots compared to other companions of fellowship block (knowing that you can just splash him to buy time and draw your other beefy companion pumped with all the possession/ condition you can)


October 20, 2014, 03:46:15 PM
Reply #6

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 854
  • #AlexJonesWasRight
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2014, 03:46:15 PM »
Yes, it was Glorfindel and not that banner-weaver elven muse!

I really like the idea of expanding the Fellowship Block format in a lore-oriented way. However, it's obvious here the Free Peoples side would be much more aided than the Shadow one: Set 14 (and 9 if is included) has very little Shadow cards, and none of them are mixable with the present Shadow cultures. Fortunately, that can be equilibrated very easily without getting out from lore; therefore I propose the inclusion of additional Shadow ones than those mentioned by Dmaz:

[Sauron]
The Mouth of Sauron, Lieutenant of Barad-Dur
Grishnakh, Orc Captain
Orc Patrol

[Isengard]
Saruman's Staff, Wizard's Device
Saruman, Of Many Colours
Throne of Isengard

[Moria]
Watcher in the Water, Many-Tentacled Creature
Reaching Tentacle
Strong Tentacle

Sauron: The Mouth of Sauron would discourage the use of a single tank companion, dividing the strength between many fighters. Actually, that was the role he took when was sent to talk to Kings Dain Ironfoot and Brand, both present here, forcing them to muster their armies for war at home and unabling them to aid the forces in Minas Tirith. His only possible pump would be Bill Ferny, SSF, to a maximum of 13 strength.

Grishnakh and Orc Patrol were actually present but unnamed in the FotR movie/book plot, as important part of the Trackers of Lugbúrz. They would add much needed strength to those weak Sauron Trackers, as the strength of FP would grow too much.

Isengard: Saruman's Staff would allow him to be a fighter, as should have always had the chance in Fellowship Block, picking off exhasuted little ones like Greenleaf or Son of Hamfast with ease. That would encourage a more often use of Servant of the Eye, as Keeper of Isengard would risk too much being assigned to a tank fighter or directed archery. Please note it is a 2-card combo Shadow combo, much worse than a 2-card FP combo in respect of hand clogging.

Of Many Colours might be a nice addition to widen the possibilities with Saruman, and would be a great splash minion in other cultures. Besides Gimli, BoG in Enhanced TS being the sole card to play with threats, Of Many Colours would be the only card using a game dynamic of further sets (Lurker).

Throne of Isengard isn't really necessary, but would add to the lore flavor and to the use of Saruman as a fighter (13 strength, damage +2 or +3 and fierce, for 3 cards and 6 to 8 twilight... as Lurtz more or less), and would have the big counter of aiding Gandalf too much (and Radagast if he alone or Set 9 are present). Could be used to turn any minion Fierce (Terror of Flame and Shadow, The Mouth of Sauron, Bill Ferny, Morgul Hunter... or even Lord of the Nazgul with News of Mordor!), and would make the FP player exert companions at any cost instead of assigning them to Saruman, SotE + Saruman's Staff (except they bear an Armor or Gimli's Helm), thus turning that 3-card combo into a "Grind Saruman".

Moria: I couldn't agree more with the addition of those 2 Balrogs (and the exclusion of Demon of Might); Power and Terror would be a big card in Fellowship sitepath.
Watcher In The Water and its tentacles might add different flavors to the mix... maybe Evil-Smelling Fens can be added to complete the Tentacle theme.

Just some thoughts. Those FP possible strategies must have serious opposition.

A last Thought! Include Horn of Boromir in the X-List, moreover if Reflections (ahem, Tom Bombadil) is included.

October 20, 2014, 07:03:22 PM
Reply #7

dmaz

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Global Mod
  • Posts: 552
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2014, 07:03:22 PM »
Yes, it was Glorfindel and not that banner-weaver elven muse!

I really like the idea of expanding the Fellowship Block format in a lore-oriented way. However, it's obvious here the Free Peoples side would be much more aided than the Shadow one: Set 14 (and 9 if is included) has very little Shadow cards, and none of them are mixable with the present Shadow cultures. Fortunately, that can be equilibrated very easily without getting out from lore; therefore I propose the inclusion of additional Shadow ones than those mentioned by Dmaz:

[Sauron]
The Mouth of Sauron, Lieutenant of Barad-Dur
Grishnakh, Orc Captain
Orc Patrol

[Isengard]
Saruman's Staff, Wizard's Device
Saruman, Of Many Colours
Throne of Isengard

[Moria]
Watcher in the Water, Many-Tentacled Creature
Reaching Tentacle
Strong Tentacle

Sauron: The Mouth of Sauron would discourage the use of a single tank companion, dividing the strength between many fighters. Actually, that was the role he took when was sent to talk to Kings Dain Ironfoot and Brand, both present here, forcing them to muster their armies for war at home and unabling them to aid the forces in Minas Tirith. His only possible pump would be Bill Ferny, SSF, to a maximum of 13 strength.

Grishnakh and Orc Patrol were actually present but unnamed in the FotR movie/book plot, as important part of the Trackers of Lugbúrz. They would add much needed strength to those weak Sauron Trackers, as the strength of FP would grow too much.

Isengard: Saruman's Staff would allow him to be a fighter, as should have always had the chance in Fellowship Block, picking off exhasuted little ones like Greenleaf or Son of Hamfast with ease. That would encourage a more often use of Servant of the Eye, as Keeper of Isengard would risk too much being assigned to a tank fighter or directed archery. Please note it is a 2-card combo Shadow combo, much worse than a 2-card FP combo in respect of hand clogging.

Of Many Colours might be a nice addition to widen the possibilities with Saruman, and would be a great splash minion in other cultures. Besides Gimli, BoG in Enhanced TS being the sole card to play with threats, Of Many Colours would be the only card using a game dynamic of further sets (Lurker).

Throne of Isengard isn't really necessary, but would add to the lore flavor and to the use of Saruman as a fighter (13 strength, damage +2 or +3 and fierce, for 3 cards and 6 to 8 twilight... as Lurtz more or less), and would have the big counter of aiding Gandalf too much (and Radagast if he alone or Set 9 are present). Could be used to turn any minion Fierce (Terror of Flame and Shadow, The Mouth of Sauron, Bill Ferny, Morgul Hunter... or even Lord of the Nazgul with News of Mordor!), and would make the FP player exert companions at any cost instead of assigning them to Saruman, SotE + Saruman's Staff (except they bear an Armor or Gimli's Helm), thus turning that 3-card combo into a "Grind Saruman".

Moria: I couldn't agree more with the addition of those 2 Balrogs (and the exclusion of Demon of Might); Power and Terror would be a big card in Fellowship sitepath.
Watcher In The Water and its tentacles might add different flavors to the mix... maybe Evil-Smelling Fens can be added to complete the Tentacle theme.

Just some thoughts. Those FP possible strategies must have serious opposition.

A last Thought! Include Horn of Boromir in the X-List, moreover if Reflections (ahem, Tom Bombadil) is included.

I agree that the shadow will definitely need a boost to handle stronger Fellowship strategies.

Regarding Glorfindel, I don't necessarily find him as destroying this proposed format. He IS strong, but he's not invincible, and there are many strategies that don't necessarily need to win every skirmish. Also remember that since we aren't including any other elven support like elven sword, his only possible possession is Asfaloth, which will be discarded at 4 or 5, and comes at a cost of 2.

Basically, we wouldn't be trying to preserve the exact feel of the fellowship block format. The idea is to warp and twist it a little, to fit the lore possibly. If the Fellowship ends up looking a little too strong, we can add Shadow support.

Grishnakh and Orc Patrol were two cards that I thought of as well :)

Fellowship block, as it stands now, sees only a few Shadows that compete really competitively and consistently, with Uruk beatdown first, and possibly one of the Moria variations in second.

Sauron gets a lot of wins, but it can get crippled easily by a strong utility fellowship, and definitely by Last Alliance decks featuring Secret Sentinels. Grishnakh and Orc Patrol will help you cycle to get more tracker conditions out, and also have the capacity for them to take down a key fellowship condition. I was also thinking about Grond, but maybe he would be unnecessary.

That's a really interesting notion on Saruman's Staff...my first instinct was that it would just push Isengard from the already number 1 Shadow to ridiculously overpowered...but as you mentioned, if you played it on Keeper of Isengard, he would 1. be able to be targeted by archery and 2. be assigned to a stronger companion to lose, as he doesn't have pumps....Uruk's strength in FotR almost always comes from being fierce and being able to absorb 3 wounds, because of KoI.

I'm still a little squeamish about how it would play out with him, but in the end there's always Betrayal at Isengard as well. Beefing Saruman up might just be an enormous waste of twilight as two exertions could take him down. The only thing I don't think would be completely necessary is Of Many Colors.

I'm worried about Watcher a little bit, more just because its a set 19 card. Some set 19 cards were pretty harmless, but some were made in light of the fact that you already have an enormous pool of cards to handle the substantial strategies that are thrown at you from them. There's a wide range of cards that handles swarm in Expanded or Standard, but in Fellowship you are a little limited.
Of course, in Fellowship you have Moria Swarm, but to get them to keep playing cards from discard, you need a combination of conditions and minions to work together. With this Watcher, you can gather a formidable force at each site with just him. Something to think about though for sure as he IS a card from the FotR book.

All in all, I think the goal should be to twofold
1. Incorporate some cards that are found in the lore
2. Include some key support cards for certain fellowship strategies that more often than not lose in Fellowship block format.

It was a fun thought to be able to use the Horn with Tomb Bombadil, but a strength 18 fighter at the cost of 1 exert might be too brutal.
Also remember that Fellowship does have a decent amount of Ally control. Anduin Confluence will probably get played a LOT more. Also, Nazgul have Fear, which might make Nazgul a more attractive option than before...usually they aren't that good.
Still the abilities of Tom Bombadil and Goldberry are pretty considerable. At least it would make Demands of the Sackville-Bagginses a useful card for once!

« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 01:47:13 AM by dmaz »

October 21, 2014, 11:43:10 AM
Reply #8

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 854
  • #AlexJonesWasRight
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2014, 11:43:10 AM »
I'm glad you liked most of those thoughts!

Anyway, I'm not against Glorfindel at all; actually I'm against Peter Jackson turning a banner-weaver muse into a warrior princess...

AND you didn't comment at all 2 points: The Mouth of Sauron, LoBD and Throne of Isengard.

The Mouth of Sauron would be a great suicide tank-companion counter, a splash minion playable in any culture for just 3 twilight (just read my previous comment, he has a strong lore weight, more if Dain and Brand are present).

Throne of Isengard would turn both versions of Saruman of Set 3 into a very heavy fighter (strength 13 dmg+2 fierce) being a 2-card combo (actually less than Lurtz + Lurtz's Sword which is strength 15 dmg+2 fierce, except for gametext and twilight cost). It has the extreme risk of turning Radagast (likely omnipresent) and Gandalf into killing Wizard beasts of strength 11 dmg+1 (more if bears his staff) and strength 12 dmg+2 (wielding Glamdring) respectively, and as you pointed out, 2 exertions of Gandalf would nullify everything except the pump to those good Wizards. As mexicans say, Nobody knows for whom it works!

No Set 3 Saruman is really splashable in other cultures, that's the idea of Saruman, Of Many Colours. His text has so much lore representativeness, as his text depicts a clever traitor waiting to deliver his blow and the demoralizing and plan-changing effects of his betrayal (do you remember Elrond and Gandalf's talk at Rivendell?). He can be a moderatly good fighter, absorb archery and his text is helpful. But the main potential relies in Throne of Isengard (with the huge risk above mentioned), being a strength 11 dmg+2 fierce Wizard and turning any minion fierce (the Witch King, LotN; The Balrog, ToFaS; Host of Moria / Goblin Patrol Troop; Morgul Hunter / Orc Pillager; even Bill Ferny).

In respect of Watcher in the Water, Many-Tentacled Creature, it might be considered as an alernative to Stupid Swarm and Moria Swarm. But there's also another option: Evil-Smelling Fens to make Keeper of Westgate viable. AND the inclusion of Reaching Tentacle and Strong Tentacle as new blood to the tentacle card pool (Foul Tentacle and Huge Tentacle). That would be a Beatdown Tentacle theme in contrast to the Swarm Tentacle theme you are trying to avoid...


Some new thoughts:

[Wraith]
Fell Beast
Ring of Asperity (Reflections)
Ring of Ire (Reflections)
Ring of Rancor (Reflections)
Ring of Savagery
Ring of Terror
The Pale Blade, Sword of Flame

[Gollum]
Gollum, Dark as Darkness
Evil-Smelling Fens

Ringwraith: Legolas killed a Fell Beast while the Fellowship was on Anduin River in the book; it would be a great addition to Twilight Nazgul. Actually was the Witch King's mount, as Frodo felt the wound on his shoulder hurting again.

Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die... to make them appear over and over again! Ring of Asperity can come in handy if you play Twilight Nazgul; Ring of Rancor can help too (useful with both Twilight Witchie and Enquea, and Shotgun Enquea if you have more than 5 burdens); Ring of Terror would be a damage addition only as there wouldn't be threats here.

The Pale Blade, Sword of Flame and Ring of Ire would add nice toys to that good old Witch King; and the first is a direct way of adding burdens, usable by both Lord of Angmar and Lord of the Nazgul... if LotN bears a Fell Beast and has NED and enough twilight, you will have lots of FUN :twisted:...

Who asked for lore?

Gollum: Everyone remembers Gollum sneaking in Moria in the book/movie, and DaD represents very well that feeling of unsecurity. He would complete the combo with Lost to the Goblins or Twilight Nazzies...

Just new ideas. Please comment.

EDIT: Some correction and better explanation to the Watcher in the Water point...
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 05:51:14 PM by Durin's Heir »

October 21, 2014, 02:57:43 PM
Reply #9

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 854
  • #AlexJonesWasRight
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2014, 02:57:43 PM »
I'm not really against Refletions Set, except for dead characters from past ages: Isildur, Elendil, Anarion, Gil-Galad, Durin III and the Dwarven Lords; and except for those Alternative RB who just couldn't take the One Ring (Gimli, BoG), or could but were corrupted in that case (Galadriel, Smeagol, Isildur again)... leaving only Bilbo and maaaaaybe Boromir as alterative bearers. (Bilbo offered himself to take the Ring to Mount Doom, and Boromir fell to desperation after Gandalf left them, prior to that he trusted and abided Gandalf's decisions)

Without those RB and dead characters, the rest is everything present in FotR book/movie except for useless things (Huorn, Ent Draught, Freca), Rohan items (Horn of the Mark and The Red Arrow) and Dwarven Rings.

I'm not even against Sauron, The Lord of the Rings taking physical form without the One (that notion is actually Jackson's and not Tolkien's), and in absense of site control and threats he can be nearly unplayable with F Block's twilight gameplay.

All in all, I think the goal should be to twofold
1. Incorporate some cards that are found in the lore
2. Include some key support cards for certain fellowship strategies that more often than not lose in Fellowship block format.

More possible card inclusions to broaden the lore representation, and to fortify some often-losing cultures:

[Gandalf]
Beorning Axe
Barliman Butterbur, Red-Faced Landlord
Dasron, Merchant From Dorwinion
Erland, Dale Counselor
Librarian, Keeper of Ancient Texts
Last Stand

[Dwarven]
Thorin III, Stonehelm
Gloin, Son of Groin
Thrarin, Smith of Erebor
Grimir, Dwarven Emissary
Stout and Strong
Gimli, Feared Axeman

[Elven]
Elrond, Elven Lord
Blade of Lindon or Sword of the Fallen

Gandalf Men: I just can't like the idea of having King Brand as a possibility without weapons and his loyal people, thus becoming only a subject of Dwarves. And Grimbeorn requires an axe too!

I exclude Jarnsmid, Barding Emissary from the list as he'd be OP and there are no FP burden adding cards in F Block. Last Stand is there for pumping, and use of Dasron's ability and Librarian's text. Maybe they will need an event pump other than SotSF... in that case The Terror of His Coming, Guidance of the Istari or even For A While Less Dark can do the job.

Dwarves: In absense of the long-dead Dwarven Lords, 5 strength dwarven companions will just perish against those big monsters and tricks added to counter the FP card pool growth. Dain Ironfoot alone isn't enough addition to equilibrate the balance, period. Besides, sole dwarves are the FP culture that losses more often in F Block, being Nazgul and Uruks their strongest threats. Thus 4 big fighters are my suggestion, in replacement of those 4 Dwarf Lords. Thorin III would be very annoying with a Dwarven Axe...

Feared Axeman can cover the other great problem of FotR Dwarves (besides low initial strength), which is they rely too much in condition support. A single Saruman's Power can destroy a normal constructed Dwarven deck. Endurance of Dwarves could cover their low vitality in a safer way than in FotR Block. Gloin, Friend of Thorin would be aided too with that addition...

Stout and Strong is there as a way of using both Dasron and Gloin, SoG's texts.

Those dwarves aren't a great menace by themselves to any Shadow in comparison to Elrond's twin sons or Set 14 Rangers.

Elves: Elrond joins together with the band. Plain and easy. Not an OP Elrond like Venerable Lord... just Elrond as a fighter. He could use Vilya as a vitality enhancer, but it's text would be extremely expensive though useful. Those ally versions of Fellowship Block are way better as support cards. And he couldn't even be a starting companion. He could make use of Master of Healing without the use of allies.

Elves will need some generic hand weapons or they will bow towards archery abuse fellowships. Blade of Lindon seems inoffensive, and Sword of the Fallen could allow double moves more often for a high price. Elven Armaments looks nice as it discards Elven Bows, but it's bonuses might be too much here.

October 21, 2014, 06:50:05 PM
Reply #10

dmaz

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Global Mod
  • Posts: 552
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2014, 06:50:05 PM »
Gandalf Men: I just can't like the idea of having King Brand as a possibility without weapons and his loyal people, thus becoming only a subject of Dwarves. And Grimbeorn requires an axe too!

When I suggested set 16, I think maybe you thought I was saying set 14 ;)
I don't think set 14 would be helpful, unfortunately. Grimbeorn would drastically skew the format. At least in other formats you have cards like Shelob, Her Ladyship that offset his ability to take down any minion he wants.

However, I do like the idea of giving a little bit of help to the Gandalf culture, without incorporating any elements that are introduced in outside formats, like threats, tokens, or followers (I know gimli ringbearer has the threat thing for Enhanced TS, but I think that this is very wrong...technically he should only have the option of adding 2 burdens, as threats are nonexistent in that format).

Regarding Mouth of Sauron, I do think he's a good idea! Like you mentioned, he could be assumed to be in the lore, realistically, so it would be great to add him. It would give the Sauron culture another boost that would make it a little more attractive :)

Regarding Throne of Isengard, I don't really see too much hard in adding it, as it's a very big double-edged sword. The throne sticks around every turn, but you aren't guaranteed to get Saruman out every turn either...so it might just end up being a big Gandalf pump, if you're not tactful ;)

Regarding Saruman, of Many Colors: the reason I think he's not necessary is because he is splashable. Fellowship block, even if it is enhanced, should continue to encourage people to focus on a shadow strategy and build around it. Rainbow shadows start to come into play in Movie block, and really shine in Expanded, but I think they best belong there.

To be honest, I wasn't considering adding very many cards to "enhance" it. We are warping the format into something new, but we really don't want it to feel like Expanded, Fellowship Site Path Format hehe. I think that would really turn a lot of people off to it.

Just my idea of what could be added so far: (a lot of which I got from you...I still hope others get interested and give their two cents as well)

Added Sets
Set 16

Additionally Valid

Dwarven Culture
Thorin III, Stonehelm
Thrarin, Smith of Erebor
Grimir, Dwarven Emissary

Elven Culture
0P50 Glorfindel, Revealed in Wrath
Elrond, Elven Lord

Gandalf Culture
Barliman Butterbur, Red-Faced Landlord
Ghan-buri-Ghan, Chieftain of the Woses
0P51 Radagast, The Brown
Radagast's Staff
Beorning Axe (Maybe)

Gondor Culture
Originally would have had Anarion from the 5 Card WETA pack here, but I don't think Gondor needs any help...Aragorn and Boromir tanks are already one of the most played and strongest options out there for fellowship. We don't need another dude you can dump last alliance on either...

Isengard Culture
Saruman's Staff, Wizard's Device
Throne of Isengard

Moria Culture
The Balrog, Terror of Flame and Shadow
The Balrog, The Terror of Khazad-dum

Wraith Culture
The Pale Blade, Sword of Flame (I think this is a great addition)
Fell Beast (a maybe here...I'll need to hear from some other on what they think this would do to the format...I forgot about that with Legolas in the book after they left Lorien. Really cool!)

Sauron Culture
The Mouth of Sauron, Lieutenant of Barad-Dur
Grishnakh, Orc Captain
Orc Patrol

Shire Culture
0P52 Goldberry, River-daughter
0P53 Tom Bombadil, The Master
Tom Bombadil's Hat

Gollum Culture
Gollum, Dark As Darkness

I think just having that solo card might be a good idea like you suggest. In Fellowship of the Ring, Gollum is just lurking in the shadows, behind the scenes. This Gollum kind of has that feel to it.

Hopefully we can get some more input from others!
Maybe the best thing to do is just to be simple and do something like include set 16 and the 5 Card weta pack...but it really would be nice to balance out the shadow cultures if possible, and also add beef to people who want to do pure dwarf or pure elf fellowships :)


October 21, 2014, 09:37:09 PM
Reply #11

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 854
  • #AlexJonesWasRight
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2014, 09:37:09 PM »
When I suggested set 16, I think maybe you thought I was saying set 14 ;)
I don't think set 14 would be helpful, unfortunately. Grimbeorn would drastically skew the format. At least in other formats you have cards like Shelob, Her Ladyship that offset his ability to take down any minion he wants.

I understand Grimbeorn would be a problem, so he can be added to the X-list. But as for the rest, they seem good companions but nothing more. I can't see the OP condition of Brand, Dain Ironfoot, Duilin, Duinhir, Halbarad or Gildor Inglorion.

Elladan and Elrohir are a different issue as can be OP in a strong pump deck, but that remove the focus from archery and that's a GOOD thing. And they would justify the inclusion of those version of The Balrog. Saruman's Snows nullifies very well their text if doesn't get discarded...

Anyway, as for Grimbeorn, he exerts twice to do his ability and the presence of Grind or Archery Shadows will be strong I guess; he won't face Nazgul fearing Black Breath, nor Orc Soldier / Orc if he has too many wounds. In a constructed FotR environment there wouldn't be too many expendable minions with enormous base strength to feed Grimbeorn the same way that in Movie or Expanded (no Siege Troop here). Most big minion are rare and useful, thus you should ditch a Balrog or Witchie to give him great strength (and exert twice); only Host of Thousands / Foul Things, TAC or Evil Afoot / Breeding Pit can recycle minions from discard pile, there is no Evil-Smelling Fens (a good point to let it out).

So in my opinion Set 14 should be added if we exclude Grimbeorn and maybe Elladan and Elrohir.

However, I do like the idea of giving a little bit of help to the Gandalf culture, without incorporating any elements that are introduced in outside formats, like threats, tokens, or followers (I know gimli ringbearer has the threat thing for Enhanced TS, but I think that this is very wrong...technically he should only have the option of adding 2 burdens, as threats are nonexistent in that format).

I like that aproach... little to no new game dynamics, as little as possible. I just thought Of Many Colours wouldn't offend that idea too much, as Lurker only avoids him to be killed early...

Regarding Mouth of Sauron, I do think he's a good idea! Like you mentioned, he could be assumed to be in the lore, realistically, so it would be great to add him. It would give the Sauron culture another boost that would make it a little more attractive :)

...

Regarding Saruman, of Many Colors: the reason I think he's not necessary is because he is splashable. Fellowship block, even if it is enhanced, should continue to encourage people to focus on a shadow strategy and build around it...

Mouth of Sauron is not assumed to have talked to Brand and Dain, he did but he's not named as The Mouth by Gloin in the Council (his characteristics depicted by Gloin correspond with those descripted at the Morannon in RotK). Anyway he'd be a splash minion, as he doesn't have any possible pump except for Bill Ferny (another splash) and he doesn't require to spot Sauron cards to be played or used...

To be honest, I wasn't considering adding very many cards to "enhance" it. We are warping the format into something new, but we really don't want it to feel like Expanded, Fellowship Site Path Format hehe. I think that would really turn a lot of people off to it.

You are right, it should remain Fellowship centered... The 'Additionally Valid' list shouldn't grow too much, haha. And we can shorten it if Set 9 is included, excluding dead companions and all alternative RB except Bilbo. That way Tom Bombadil, Goldberry, Gollum, DaD, Radagast and Glorfindel would be inside the format and outside the Additional Valid list.

Elendil, Isildur, Gil Galad, Durin III, Linnar, Uri, Sindri should be added to the X-list, and either add to the X-list Gimli, BoG, Galadriel, BoW, Boromir, BoC and Smeagol, BoGS or allow only Frodo to be the RB and allow those comps to be played as regular ones (those versions of Bilbo and Boromir are very useful).

Just my idea of what could be added so far: (a lot of which I got from you...I still hope others get interested and give their two cents as well)

I too hope other folks will add their ideas and knowledge.

Gandalf Culture
Barliman Butterbur, Red-Faced Landlord
Ghan-buri-Ghan, Chieftain of the Woses
0P51 Radagast, The Brown
Radagast's Staff
Beorning Axe (Maybe)

If there's no Beorning Axe, Barliman will be a 4 strength companion with no pumps... or 5 if Brand is included.

Gondor Culture
Originally would have had Anarion from the 5 Card WETA pack here, but I don't think Gondor needs any help...Aragorn and Boromir tanks are already one of the most played and strongest options out there for fellowship. We don't need another dude you can dump last alliance on either...

I'd really like to see those small guys of Set 14 using some Ranger tricks of Fellowship format. They would need a generic weapon, or rely on Flaming Brand instead.

Hopefully we can get some more input from others!
Maybe the best thing to do is just to be simple and do something like include set 16 and the 5 Card weta pack...but it really would be nice to balance out the shadow cultures if possible, and also add beef to people who want to do pure dwarf or pure elf fellowships :)

I like the additions you mentioned. I'm just trying to broaden a little that enhancement, and Set 9 with the mentioned exclusions seems fair to me. Pure dwarves and pure elves are weak culures in F Block... that Gimli, Feared Axeman can reverse much of that problem.

October 21, 2014, 09:53:15 PM
Reply #12

dmaz

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Global Mod
  • Posts: 552
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2014, 09:53:15 PM »
If there's no Beorning Axe, Barliman will be a 4 strength companion with no pumps... or 5 if Brand is included.

You make a good point. If someone wanted to build a deck that centered around Gandalf and his merry men, it would be decent to have some support. Looking at it from a cost/benefit standpoint, because the axe costs two, you are paying 4 twilight for a companion who is strength 6/vitality 4. That's pretty fair :)

It would be fun to see Barliman setting off from the Prancing Pony with an Axe and Flaming Brand: "The Pony is under new management. Let's go boys!"

October 22, 2014, 08:42:33 PM
Reply #13

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 854
  • #AlexJonesWasRight
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2014, 08:42:33 PM »
You make a good point. If someone wanted to build a deck that centered around Gandalf and his merry men, it would be decent to have some support. Looking at it from a cost/benefit standpoint, because the axe costs two, you are paying 4 twilight for a companion who is strength 6/vitality 4. That's pretty fair :)

And with Brand he would be strength 7 vit 4, a 3 card combo with no possible pumps excluding SotSF and TMAYOD. The only troublesome additions of Set 14 would be Grimbeorn, maybe Elladan and Elrohir. And those can be included in the X-list. Even allowing either Elladan or Elrohir, but not both, would remove the OP condition from the remaining one...

It would be fun to see Barliman setting off from the Prancing Pony with an Axe and Flaming Brand: "The Pony is under new management. Let's go boys!"

Actually Aragorn incited him to do that, except for the exact mentioned weapons! Hahaha!

EDIT: Some interesting argumentation in support of Brand and Set 14.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 09:04:37 PM by Durin's Heir »

October 24, 2014, 11:36:27 AM
Reply #14

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 854
  • #AlexJonesWasRight
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2014, 11:36:27 AM »
When I suggested set 16, I think maybe you thought I was saying set 14 Wink...

However, I do like the idea of giving a little bit of help to the Gandalf culture, without incorporating any elements that are introduced in outside formats, like threats, tokens, or followers (I know gimli ringbearer has the threat thing for Enhanced TS, but I think that this is very wrong...technically he should only have the option of adding 2 burdens, as threats are nonexistent in that format).

Actually every Set 16 card has a loaded keyword which belongs to Set 8 and onwards: Enduring.

Barrow-Wight Stalker
Candle Corpses
Covetous Wisp
Dead Faces
Spirit of Dread
Undead of Angmar

I don't think a single Lurker card, Of Many Colours, would do more harm to the format than 6 Enduring cards...

October 26, 2014, 05:54:40 PM
Reply #15

dmaz

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Global Mod
  • Posts: 552
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2014, 05:54:40 PM »
When I suggested set 16, I think maybe you thought I was saying set 14 Wink...

However, I do like the idea of giving a little bit of help to the Gandalf culture, without incorporating any elements that are introduced in outside formats, like threats, tokens, or followers (I know gimli ringbearer has the threat thing for Enhanced TS, but I think that this is very wrong...technically he should only have the option of adding 2 burdens, as threats are nonexistent in that format).

Actually every Set 16 card has a loaded keyword which belongs to Set 8 and onwards: Enduring.

Barrow-Wight Stalker
Candle Corpses
Covetous Wisp
Dead Faces
Spirit of Dread
Undead of Angmar

I don't think a single Lurker card, Of Many Colours, would do more harm to the format than 6 Enduring cards...

I completely overlooked Enduring, thanks for pointing that out!
I would initially be against including them because of this, but seeing as they are a part of the lore, and they have the ability to help Nazgul corruption a little bit (and also add some risk to running an archery deck), I think it should be OK.

Of Many Colors combined with Throne of Isengard can be very powerful, but people can always run a copy of Something Draws Near in their deck :) I actually used this card for a while when the meta was very heavy Palantir/Stupid Swarm, as its the only way to get rid of the Palantir in Fellowship phase so that you can use your Secret Sentinels to get rid of Saruman's Snows haha.

Anyway, even though Throne of Isengard is really strong, there IS a way to get rid of it...

October 28, 2014, 05:43:39 PM
Reply #16

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 854
  • #AlexJonesWasRight
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2014, 05:43:39 PM »
To everyone reading: Come on folks! What are you waiting for? Get in the talk! We would gladly hear/read your opinions, many of you have ideas to enrich this thread...

To Dmaz: My friend, you haven't said anything about the inclusion of Set 14 excluding OP cards: Grimbeorn, Elladan, Elrohir and maybe Furious Hillman. Set 14 has so many lore consistent cards: Dain Ironfoot, King Brand, Halbarad, Gildor Inglorion... even Grimbeorn and the elven twins but they are too powerful here. Elladan and Elrohir aren't as OP as Grimbeorn, and could very well justify those Shadow additions (The Mouth of Sauron can neglect Elrohir very well, Saruman SotE can kill one or even both without too much problems if uses his Palantir).

Uruk-Hai Healer and Uruk-Hai Scout are consistent too, and wouldn't have too much usefulness. The first is moderately good against archery and huge with machines or Uruk Spear (which are not present), and the latter would only summon 2 site keywords: plains for Black Steed or underground for Cave Troll, Goblin Wallcrawler or The Balrog (not even Dark Places; can even backfire feeding Dwarves)...

Inconsistent cards (with FotR book/movie) would be Duinhir, Duilin and remaining minions: Half-Troll of Far Harad, Horror of Harad, Furious Hillman and Swarming Hillman. Those Gondorians don't seem really powerful, Half-Troll of Far Harad is completely useless and Swarming Hillman just won't survive until regroup often against Gondor. Horror of Harad has too many outsider keywords, and several copies of Furious Hillman might protect swarm shadows; those can be X-listed.

I insist in the point that with the elven twins, the main OP problem is NOT having both on the table mixing their benefits, but being able to have both in the table from the start. If only one of them gets into the X-list, the remaining would be accompained by a Lorien Elf or Merry if played as starting companion...


All in all, IMO only Grimbeorn and Horror of Harad would necessarily be excluded, and could also be excluded Elladan, Elrohir, Uruk-Hai Scout and Furious Hillman. Everything else is either useless or low-powered. Or lore consistent, which I think is the goal.

I completely overlooked Enduring, thanks for pointing that out!
I would initially be against including them because of this, but seeing as they are a part of the lore, and they have the ability to help Nazgul corruption a little bit (and also add some risk to running an archery deck), I think it should be OK.

I really like those Wraiths adding lore to the format. And giving more justifications for Tom Bombadil!
Anyway, they have great problems here as there are only 2 cards in the format that combine directly with Barrow Wights and Dagorlad Deads: Otsea, LoM and Gates of the Dead City.... Those are Wraiths and not Twilight minions... :( Anyway they somewhat share goals and are a subculture by their own. And can use FP archery to their favour :).
I'd add one or two pumps or tricks for them...

The reason I wanted to include [Wraith] Rings is, those help Twilight Nazgul pretty well: Ring of Asperity can wound Frodo directly, Ring of Savagery acts the same as Toldea, Winged Sentry, Ring of Rancor helps Shotgun Enquea (moreover if there are extra burdens). And each can return bearer to hand, allowing a Witchie, LotN almost every turn (that's the reason almost everyone use 4x LotN in their Twilight Nazgul decks)...

Of Many Colors combined with Throne of Isengard can be very powerful, but people can always run a copy of Something Draws Near in their deck :) I actually used this card for a while when the meta was very heavy Palantir/Stupid Swarm, as its the only way to get rid of the Palantir in Fellowship phase so that you can use your Secret Sentinels to get rid of Saruman's Snows haha.

Anyway, even though Throne of Isengard is really strong, there IS a way to get rid of it...

And the Throne has a heavy side cost: strengthens Radagast and Gandalf too much. And Gandy can destroy Saruman with only Betrayal and 2 exertions...

There is another Saruman we can include: Black Traitor. Another splash, but not a fighting one unless you pack his Staff too into the deck, and likely would soak less archery that way... Though I prefer Of Many Colours as it has such a strong lore feeling.

Please comment. Join the talk!
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 08:10:08 PM by Durin's Heir »

June 08, 2015, 11:32:42 AM
Reply #17

dmaz

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Global Mod
  • Posts: 552
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2015, 11:32:42 AM »
To everyone reading: Come on folks! What are you waiting for? Get in the talk! We would gladly hear/read your opinions, many of you have ideas to enrich this thread...

To Dmaz: My friend, you haven't said anything about the inclusion of Set 14 excluding OP cards: Grimbeorn, Elladan, Elrohir and maybe Furious Hillman. Set 14 has so many lore consistent cards: Dain Ironfoot, King Brand, Halbarad, Gildor Inglorion... even Grimbeorn and the elven twins but they are too powerful here. Elladan and Elrohir aren't as OP as Grimbeorn, and could very well justify those Shadow additions (The Mouth of Sauron can neglect Elrohir very well, Saruman SotE can kill one or even both without too much problems if uses his Palantir).

Uruk-Hai Healer and Uruk-Hai Scout are consistent too, and wouldn't have too much usefulness. The first is moderately good against archery and huge with machines or Uruk Spear (which are not present), and the latter would only summon 2 site keywords: plains for Black Steed or underground for Cave Troll, Goblin Wallcrawler or The Balrog (not even Dark Places; can even backfire feeding Dwarves)...

Inconsistent cards (with FotR book/movie) would be Duinhir, Duilin and remaining minions: Half-Troll of Far Harad, Horror of Harad, Furious Hillman and Swarming Hillman. Those Gondorians don't seem really powerful, Half-Troll of Far Harad is completely useless and Swarming Hillman just won't survive until regroup often against Gondor. Horror of Harad has too many outsider keywords, and several copies of Furious Hillman might protect swarm shadows; those can be X-listed.

I insist in the point that with the elven twins, the main OP problem is NOT having both on the table mixing their benefits, but being able to have both in the table from the start. If only one of them gets into the X-list, the remaining would be accompained by a Lorien Elf or Merry if played as starting companion...


All in all, IMO only Grimbeorn and Horror of Harad would necessarily be excluded, and could also be excluded Elladan, Elrohir, Uruk-Hai Scout and Furious Hillman. Everything else is either useless or low-powered. Or lore consistent, which I think is the goal.

I had gotten caught up with life and other pursuits, that I left this topic to rest for too long!

Another FotR thread spurred my interest to get talking about this a little more :)

I had forgotten to address the great set 14 cards that you brought up! I think, as you pointed out, there could be a lot of potential there!

As I generally lean on the conservative side of things, when I see cards like Grimbeorn and think about including them in FotR, I automatically get nervous. However, I think since there will be stronger cards on both sides, we need to playtest these things and see how they do! If they do prove to be too powerful, it would be OK to omit some and allow others as it's a specific format.

There are actually existing formats that have the "additionally allowed" list.

I think Dain, King Brand, Halbarad, Gildor would really add a lot to the meta. I would really love to see Dwarves get a healthy boost in support. Dain and Brand could do that without going TOO far by allowing the Reflections cards (oh my!). And as you noted we could create fun situations that would be more consistent with the lore. Companion version of Thrarin would be neat too (12U15).

Elladan and Elrohir could possibly stay lore-consistent. Were they present at the council of Elrond? It's been so long since I read the books, hehe. In any case, they could be play-tested and see how things go with them...if they prove to be too strong, no problem, just drop them.

Wraiths, and some toys (like the rings perhaps, as you mentioned) would add that extra fun element to keep the FP on their toes - corruption!  We want to include Tom Bombadil a lot, mostly for the lore, and the set just feeling complete with him there. But then our natural fear is Boromir with horn being too powerful. Corruption adds a whole different venue that the FP would need to prepare for. If they can't get Son of Hamfast working for one reason or another, Bombadil winning skirmishes may not be able to do anything for them!

To address the Horn of Boromir, in general, Moria does have the ever-popular Such a Little Thing. This is a great end-all to Boromir if you can get 2 in hand, usually. And as an experienced player recently shared with me, a good Moria deck will have x4 of it  :twisted:
I immediately thought of set 7 Cantea, but I'd like to see if we can find another way to discard possessions without relying on threats. If possible, it would be good if we could avoid the whole threat dynamics in Enhanced FotR. i.e. allow the format to be expanded without bogging it down with too many things intented for later formats.

I'll look into possession control, and a little more about isengard, and report back.





June 10, 2015, 03:09:32 PM
Reply #18

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 854
  • #AlexJonesWasRight
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2015, 03:09:32 PM »
Elladan and Elrohir weren't present at the Council, but were present at Rivendell in that time just like Merry and Pippin; in the book the Fellowship of the Ring was designed after the Council and not during it. They later went to Rhosgobel to summon Radagast, but found he wasn't at his house and returned to his father (otherwise Radagast might have been one of the Nine Walkers, but Tolkien excluded him, such as Elrond and Glorfindel, probably to give more emphasis to Hobbits and Men instead of supernatural forces like Gandalf, or dwindling races like Elves or Dwarves). So they were present.

It's a good idea to playtest the Elven Twins before deciding if they are overpowered or not, to therefore X-list them. The X-list can help to give shape to this new format, just as the "additional valid" list. But there is another list we might use to prevent OP combos (or reduce the impact of OP cards): the R-list.


The problem of the Horn of Boromir can't be easily handled with the FOTR card pool: you have to discard the Horn, kill Boromir or discard most or all allies to counter it. And the "additional valid" list doesn't help too much, because Shadow cards that discard FP possessions suffer of these issues: they aren't lore consistent (Dunlending Pillager, Corsair Marauder, Grond HotU, Wormtongue, Where Has Grima Stowed It) or rely on new game mechanics (Cantea, Faster than Winds); I can't recall a [Uruk], [Isengard], [Moria], [Sauron], or [Wraith] card of later sets that doesn't have such problems, though I can be wrong 'cause I'm not an expert and don't play anything past set 10. So, to counter the Horn of Boromir we have:

- [Isengard] can try to discard the Horn with Isengard Smith (but will have huge troubles to survive unexhausted to the Regroup phase) or kill Boromir with Saruman SotE and some strong, preferably fierce guy like Lurtz (or Saruman SotE himself, with his Staff and his Throne); discarding Armor with BtHoM will be key. To discard/kill allies they have nought.

- [Sauron] can try to kill Boromir with Hate, You Bring Great Evil and Enduring Evil, or discard/kill allies with Memory of Many Things and Tower Assasin. They can't discard possessions.

- [Moria] can try to kill Boromir with, as you correctly say, Such a Little Thing. Or with Frenzy (such an underrated card, if he exhausts himself to summon some allies, you can force him to fight a strong Goblin or a high vitality Goblin bearing a Moria Axe :twisted:). They don't have anything to discard possessions or non-Dwarf allies (Goblin Warrior), so killing "The Great Warrior" (as Uglúk named him) is the only thing Moria can do.

- [Wraith] can discard the Horn with Beauty is Fading, or try to kill Boromir with many tricks (Blade Tip, Shotgun Enquea, Toldea MoM with a Nazgul Sword :twisted:), or discard/kill strong fighter allies with Fear, Attea The Easterling, The Nine Servants of Sauron (hobbit hospital) and Their Power is in Terror. They are clearly in advantage to the other Shadow cultures.

If all those hard efforts to directly discard the Horn finally hit the nail, the FP player can just play another copy in a further Fellowship phase. Unless the Horn of Boromir is added to the R-list. If we do that, the Horn will be only a piece of the engine in "Fighting-allies" FP decks; the other pieces would be events: One Whom Men Would Follow for everyone (a legal way to summon Tom Bombadil in Movie Block), and Support of the Last Homely House and Swan Ship of the Galadhrim for [Elven] allies. And good-old Thrarin, Dwarven Smith.

So we can add the Horn of Boromir to either the X-list (removing a strong lore consistent card) or to the R-list. But allowing 4 copies of it will be too unbalanced I think.

The R-list can make OP cards more bearable to the opponent. I firmly believe that Savagery to Match Their Numbers and Saruman, KoI SHOULD be R-listed, not X-listed in Movie Block, but that's another discussion. The only cards that can't be reduced in power when added to the R-list are companions that can be part of the starting fellowship, because you don't have to draw them in order to play them. That leaves only 2 options for Grimbeorn: totally allowed, or totally forbidden.

The R-list can turn discard decks even more powerful, as a strategy that relies on a card with a single copy will be destroyed if that card unwillingly hits the discard pile ;). I'd add No Stranger to the Shadows to the R-list, given the power increase to Gondor and the need of less choking mechanisms to allow stronger and more expensive Shadow strategies to work.

In respect of Forces of Mordor, I'd vote for its remotion from the R-list. That's another way of making the [Sauron] culture stronger.



In respect of Reflections, there are so many things that correspond to TTT or ROTK, or to past ages like Elendil, that would be absurd to allow that whole set to be used. Nonetheless, there are some good cards that we might make "additionally valid" (or allow the Set 9 to be used with a swollen X-list including Elendil, Isildur, Gil-Galad, Dwarven Lords and Rings...):

- Bilbo BoTB will be awesome in FOTR Block.
- Boromir BoC, as a regular companion, will be very interesting I think (Troop of Uruk Hai + Saruman KOI? Just discard it! ;)).
- Host of Moria can bring new blood to the Goblinses.
- Gollum DaD and the Nazgûl Rings, as we talked before.
- Library of Orthanc? Ithil Stone?
- Elven Rope? Knife of the Galadhrim? Merry's Dagger and Pippin's Dagger? (Only the Elven Rope is truly lore-consistent, and unless the Knife is used to give Halbarad a weapon, Aragorn doesn't need more toys)
- Radagast. SENT BACK (Kamikaze Gandy)! Frodo + Gandy decks will thank the inclusion of Sent Back.
- Scroll of Isildur. Narsil, BotF (without Elendil and Isildur, will be a vitality enhancer for [Gondor] guys like Boromir SoD, in fact he's handling that sword in the picture); Strider carried only one weapon in Bree in the book, and was the hilt of a broken sword...

Andúril FotW, and perhaps Andúril STWB (though the vitality bonus worries me with Aragorn's Bow). I know that those aren't part of Reflections, but Andúril is part of the FOTR book. LORE CONSISTENT. Maybe Aragorn Strider, as it's very lore consistent too (Boromir/Halbarad + Aragorn as starting felowship).

EDIT: Added more spices to the soup, so read it again you lazy guy! Just joking, but added more things about the R-list.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2015, 04:19:41 PM by Durin's Heir »

June 10, 2015, 04:53:10 PM
Reply #19

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 854
  • #AlexJonesWasRight
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2015, 04:53:10 PM »
Sword of Minas Morgul can discard the Horn, but you must play Lemenya, this card, and Lemenya must be skirmishing Boromir...

Some cards of further Sets that can discard the Horn (without using new cultures or new game mechanics):

- Loathsome
- Morgul Answers
- Gorbag's Sword (but requires a [Wraith] Orc)
- Twisted Tales (but requires [Isengard] Men)
- Iron Fist of the Orc (but requires [Isengard] discarding Orcs, or several copies of The Trees Are Strong. Or Fires and Foul Fumes)

Some cards that counter (or get benefit from) fighting allies:

- Uruk Stalker (if you kill an ally)
- Banished on Boromir, more or less.
- Come Down (but requires more [Isengard] archers than just Orthanc Assassin and Lurtz)
- Ranks Without Number!!!

Ranks Without Number can counter the whole Horn thing, as far as it stays on the board. But given all the condition discard power in FOTR, that won't happen often.

Of all those mentioned, I'd consider adding:

- Loathsome
- Morgul Answers
- Iron Fist of the Orc
- Uruk Stalker
- Ranks Without Number.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 12:54:58 PM by Durin's Heir »

June 10, 2015, 06:27:07 PM
Reply #20

dmaz

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Global Mod
  • Posts: 552
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2015, 06:27:07 PM »
Lot's to address!

I'll take on the whole Horn of Boromir thing to start!

Great detective work with all of those cards. The only ones I had come across were mostly the Isengard men ones as well as Loathsome.

Something I needed to remind myself was that when Horn of Boromir was originally made, they knew that there would be potential to have an ally fighting that could win a lot of skirmishes, assuming no pumps on the shadow side. Given, Elrond isn't a Tom Bombadil, but he still can take down his fair share of minions.

I think with the existence of Fear for Nazgul, Memory of Many Things for Sauron, and Such a Little Thing for Moria, when combined with confluence being around, this gives enough defense for those shadows to take care of a horn deck, even with The Master about.
....the only thing lacking support is Isengard. And you pointed out Ranks Without Number, which would be an excellent addition! I really support putting that on the Additional Valid list :)

There's also the fact that you must either remove 2 burdens or 2 threats to play Tom Bombadil. Since there won't be threats, this would mean that if he gets discarded once, the FP would need to get creative to add more burdens carefully. If the shadow isn't archery or corruption that would mean putting frodo in a skirmish, which could be risky. This is all assuming that Frodo doesn't start running around at site 2 with 4 burdens, but that would risky to begin with for them :)

I'd like to think that we are trying to bring a lot of the lore from the literature to FotR; I'd even say that might be my main goal in developing this Enhanced FotR format. One could argue that giving Tom Bombadil the ability to essentially fight outside of his "realm" would actually be against the lore...which is true...though we've also seen hobbits beat down the Balrog in FotR format, which is very much against the lore as well....so maybe we could say we are just helping include cards that are consistent with the lore....what you do with them in the game is another thing haha :D

Like you mentioned, Elladan and Elrohir could be playtested, and I would love to playtest Radagast as well. For playtesting we'd need MarcinS to create another "test" format like he did for Towers Standard for us. Hopefully after he launched the TS Sealed, we can get him to make an open testing format for FotR where skies would be the limit for us to try all kinds of things.

I'll have to catch up a little more on the rest later!

June 11, 2015, 02:11:43 PM
Reply #21

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 854
  • #AlexJonesWasRight
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2015, 02:11:43 PM »
About the Horn... I searched through the Gemp deckbuilder for [Uruk] and [Wraith] cards of Set 11 and onwards that might discard FP possessions, without using new game mechanics, and found nought.

But found a problem regarding Ranks Without Number: Elrond (preferably HtGG) + Vilya. That condition is unique and thus to counter it you don't need to discard it, is enough to just return it to hand. And Elrond with Vilya can easily do that. Elrond HtGG is the main fighting ally in FOTR block Horn decks, and won't be removed by Tom Bombadil but instead will be joined by him :o. So it's not a definitive solution :(. Adding the Horn to the R-list can reduce it's impact in the format.

[Isengard] will have the new tricks for Saruman, and if Boromir doesn't bear an Armor (or BtHoM discards it), Servant of the Eye can assign someone to kill him (and Throne of Isengard can make that fighter fierce if it isn't by itself). But if we consider the previous paragraph Ranks Without Number won't be the solution most of the times. :-S

Lemenya, Winged Hunter can discard the Horn by returning Boromir to hand (if happens to get through to the regroup phase unexhausted; Ring of Rancor? 3x or 4x All Blades Perish?).

Don't forget about Frenzy for [Moria], it's an awesome surprise in archer decks (or against directed archery decks, easily you bring down a Greenleaf out of the blue ;)). It's even better in Southron + Moria decks in Movie Block or (better) TS, as the exerting Southron archers pave the road just before Assignment phase :twisted:... 2 copies are enough.


About an "open" format with FOTR sites, in the meanwhile we can playtest using the Revised Towers Standard format, restraining ourselves to only FOTR block + "additionally valid" cards. It will be the same except for using TTT sites.


I'm waiting to see what you think about the R-list and those lore-consistent Reflection cards...

EDIT: Dmaz, found another issue we must decide. Should RB skirmishes be cancellable?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 12:55:10 PM by Durin's Heir »

June 17, 2015, 06:18:21 AM
Reply #22

sgtdraino

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Knight
  • Posts: 1033
  • Ranger of Ecthelion
    • Facebook
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2015, 06:18:21 AM »
If you ask me (which you didn't), Ring-bearer skirmishes shouldn't be cancellable, period. Decipher applied that rule to all formats, including Fellowship Block. Gemp just likes to do their own thing on that one.
"I would have followed you, my brother... my captain... my king." - Boromir

June 17, 2015, 06:50:51 AM
Reply #23

dmaz

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Global Mod
  • Posts: 552
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2015, 06:50:51 AM »
If you ask me (which you didn't), Ring-bearer skirmishes shouldn't be cancellable, period. Decipher applied that rule to all formats, including Fellowship Block. Gemp just likes to do their own thing on that one.

This is an open discussion. We are asking everyone :)

After reading the comprehensive rulebook that came out Shadows-era, it did say that this rulebook replaces all other rulebooks.

I also read this there which was placed as an example:
"If Frodo is the Ring-bearer, you cannot use Frodo's
Cloak to cancel his skirmish ("...add a burden and
discard Frodo's Cloak to cancel a skirmish involving
Frodo.")"

Because Frodo's Cloak specifies that the skirmish would only be cancellable in Towers sites, it can be inferred that Decipher is refering to a game being played on the Towers site path (either Towers or TS).

I think it's quite possible that you are right in the assertion that Decipher intended for RB skirmish not to be canceled for all formats.

However, the purpose of playing on GEMP is to recreate the experience of each format, as it was designed and not as Decipher mutated it. I think that, for purpose of the experience, skirmish should be cancellable in every format where Decipher originally allowed it to be cancellable.

Enhanced TS you don't allow canceling because of the alternate ringbearers. Basically, most see the introduction of the alternate ringbearers as the moment in which RB skirmishes weren't allowed to be canceled, for various reasons.

If we don't include the alternate ringbearers in Enhanced FotR, I think by all means RB skirmishes should still be cancellable.

June 17, 2015, 07:08:34 AM
Reply #24

dmaz

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Global Mod
  • Posts: 552
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2015, 07:08:34 AM »
About the Horn... I searched through the Gemp deckbuilder for [Uruk] and [Wraith] cards of Set 11 and onwards that might discard FP possessions, without using new game mechanics, and found nought.

But found a problem regarding Ranks Without Number: Elrond (preferably HtGG) + Vilya. That condition is unique and thus to counter it you don't need to discard it, is enough to just return it to hand. And Elrond with Vilya can easily do that. Elrond HtGG is the main fighting ally in FOTR block Horn decks, and won't be removed by Tom Bombadil but instead will be joined by him :o. So it's not a definitive solution :(. Adding the Horn to the R-list can reduce it's impact in the format.

Personally, I think, as Enhanced TS functions, the purpose of creating the format is to enhance it with new cards more than change and revise what already exists.
Really the only thing that would make the Horn any different than it already is is the addition of Tom Bombadil. However, the cards provided in FotR that already deal with Horn decks (mostly ally discard) I think are sufficient. It all depends on the meta.
It's very very possible that everyone will want to have fun with the Balrog-killing Bombadil deck at the release of the format, but if that is the case, everyone will be packing multiple copies of cards to shut it down...there is a balance. Basically, I think that we can enhance the experience without changing what already exists in fotr.

[Isengard] will have the new tricks for Saruman, and if Boromir doesn't bear an Armor (or BtHoM discards it), Servant of the Eye can assign someone to kill him (and Throne of Isengard can make that fighter fierce if it isn't by itself). But if we consider the previous paragraph Ranks Without Number won't be the solution most of the times. :-S


I DO really like the addition of Saruman's Staff and Throne. A fierce Servant of the Eye can kill Boromir after he's exerted to allow the allies to fight. Really, Servant of the Eye is an excellent way for Isengard to kill Boromir regardless of his staff or not. You just need minions.

Don't forget about Frenzy for [Moria], it's an awesome surprise in archer decks (or against directed archery decks, easily you bring down a Greenleaf out of the blue ;)). It's even better in Southron + Moria decks in Movie Block or (better) TS, as the exerting Southron archers pave the road just before Assignment phase :twisted:... 2 copies are enough.


Another good, overlooked card :)

About an "open" format with FOTR sites, in the meanwhile we can playtest using the Revised Towers Standard format, restraining ourselves to only FOTR block + "additionally valid" cards. It will be the same except for using TTT sites.


Coding it wouldn't be hard. I would do it once I see MarcinS make his first round of adaptions on the stuff I already submitted.

I'm waiting to see what you think about the R-list and those lore-consistent Reflection cards...


I do agree that for Movie block, there are many things that could have been R-listed instead of X-listed.
For this format, I don't think adding any particular FotR block card to the R-list would be necessarily beneficial.

As for cards lore-consistent. I'm pretty much on the same page as you there, I'd say. It would be really fun to incorporate a few reflections cards to the "additional valid" without going overboard. I'm going to post a breakdown of my opinions on the cards one by one and you can tell me what you think, if I'm onto something or way off hehe  :lol:

EDIT: Dmaz, found another issue we must decide. Should RB skirimishes be cancellable?

Can see above :) Also this goes hand in hand with the R-list thing. I don't think it's necessary to modify the cards or rules that are within the already-functioning format, as long as we don't add too many new mechanics.
As always, this will require playtesting :D
« Last Edit: June 17, 2015, 11:56:52 AM by dmaz »

June 17, 2015, 07:13:35 PM
Reply #25

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 854
  • #AlexJonesWasRight
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2015, 07:13:35 PM »
If you ask me (which you didn't), Ring-bearer skirmishes shouldn't be cancellable, period. Decipher applied that rule to all formats, including Fellowship Block. Gemp just likes to do their own thing on that one.

Draino, at several times we called other guys to join. Welcome! You honour this discussion with your presence, please keep contributing to the development of this new format. But you must sit at the back of the bus... :lol:

Regarding RB skirmishes:

1. Long version: In FOTR block those can be cancelled but the circumstances that allow it are very limited: sites 1 to 5 with events, fighting a Nazgul with a condition, or be in a fierce skirmish with 3 or more vitality and an ally. If we add Tom Bombadil to the mix, the limit of sites will be pushed to site 8, and that's too much I think. And Tom is much harder to counter than most allies, as ally-wounding tricks barely scratch him (and he'll get healing from Goldberry + river sites; potentially sites 2, 3, 6, 7, 8 and 9), so discarding him is the only real counter.

2. Short version: Totally agree, they SHOULDN'T be cancellable.

For this format, I don't think adding any particular FotR block card to the R-list would be necessarily beneficial.

Tom Bombadil is too powerful to not consider some modifications to the format (X-list or R-list some card). He'll change too much the dynamics of the format, bringing trouble in at least 3 different fronts:

1. He cancels skirmishes involving Hobbits, until site 8.

2. He's a terrific fighter in case the Horn of Boromir or One Whom Men Would Follow allow him to fight. Not only his base strength is 14 + bonuses, but his vitality 9 makes him able to survive 2 defeats against The Balrog ToFaS + The Balrog's Sword (damage +3, strength 20). Saruman will never defeat him due to the lack of pumps (with the Throne and his Staff he'll be only strength 13; Of Many Colours reduces strength to companions only). And his huge vitality will soak too many arrows... In Movie block there are stronger and cheaper minions to face, but a 16/17 fighting ally (worse than a str 14 Supergorn) will nullify or destroy almost anything in his path (Lurtz + Lurtz's Sword, Cave Troll + Hammer, Shadow Archery, Witch King + Pale Blade...).

3. He removes 2 burdens each time he's (re)played. That's troublesome 'cause discarding him is the only real counter, and knowing that any Fighting Allies deck will pack 3 or 4 copies of Tom Bombadil, and the FP player can add burdens at his/her will with Hobbit Farmer + The Prancing Pony to be always able to play him (and that's a perfect site 1 to start with Boromir and Merry).

Those 3 points are my reasons to consider Tom Bombadil and his associated cards (Horn of Boromir, OWMWF, perhaps Hobbit Farmer) worthy candidates for the R-list. As said above, he will change deeply the dynamics of the format. Unless we do something about.


The R-list is a powerful, non-extremist tool we can use to give a correct shape to this new format.

Also this goes hand in hand with the R-list thing. I don't think it's necessary to modify the cards or rules that are within the already-functioning format, as long as we don't add too many new mechanics.
This quote is to reinforce my arguments posted above.

As always, this will require playtesting :D
Playtesting will be key. It's the only known method to separate speculation from certitude. :up:
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 12:55:47 PM by Durin's Heir »

June 18, 2015, 05:13:49 AM
Reply #26

dmaz

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Global Mod
  • Posts: 552
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2015, 05:13:49 AM »
I definitely agree that Tom Bombadil is something that could potentially be way too powerful. We will definitely be able to see through playtesting.

Like you suggested with Grimbeorn, Bombadil is of a nature where he's either included or he's X-listed.

I'm not sure if making him an R-list card would necessarily solve the issues that you brought up, but we can test to try and see :)

The skirmish canceling thing may be one of the bigger issues. Note that you do need to have Merry or Sam still around to use it, but it might skew the format too much, which is something we don't want to do.

Skirmish canceling in Fellowship is too much a part of the original format to just throw that out altogether for wanting to force one card into the enhanced version of the format. Thus if Tom proves to be just too strong with his cancelling, it's more reasonable to throw him away than throw away the established format altogether.

It would be nice to see him in the enhanced fotr, consistent with the lore...maybe playtesting will prove it's ok, but we'll have to see...

June 18, 2015, 04:43:55 PM
Reply #27

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 854
  • #AlexJonesWasRight
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2015, 04:43:55 PM »
Like you suggested with Grimbeorn, Bombadil is of a nature where he's either included or he's X-listed.

Hmmm, Grimbeorn and Bombadil are very different in a point: if you R-list Grimbeorn he'll still be playable as starting companion. But you can't start with an ally, and Practically Everyone Was Invited cannot play him like AWINL does with [Gandalf] guys. The R-list has a great potential to dam the power of excessively strong cards, but was seldom used by Decipher before the Expanded format; overlooked I guess.

The only cards that can't be reduced in power by R-listing them are unique companions that can be played from draw deck at the start (via starting fellowship and sites 1 like The Prancing Pony or Green Dragon Inn). 'Cause you need one copy in play, and you don't need to draw it. Other type cards that can be played from deck at site 1, like Bill the Pony by Sam Faithful Companion, can still be nerfed a lot by R-listing them, because a possession, condition or ally is much easier to discard than a companion.

So R-listing Grimbeorn is totally pointless. Unlike Bombadil... But Grimbeorn establishes a dichotomic bifurcation, and instinct tells me he'll be excluded after playtesting :(. For the sake of good gameplay!


I think that the Horn of Boromir and Tom Bombadil must be considered for the R-list.

The Horn's role can be done by OWMWF (and SotLHH and SSotG with [Elven] allies) while you still don't draw it, so Fighting Allies decks can still go on, but the comparative advantages of the Horn (doesn't clog your hand, usable multiple times, +3 strength for each exertion) will be reduced a lot. That's very important if Bombadil is included. And indeed I want him to be included.

R-listing Tom will limit the burden removal trick (otherwise, you can peel 4 burdens by (ab)using him twice with Anduin Confluence) and that's a good thing, and reduce the power of the skirmish cancelling skill. And make him a mere addition to Fighting Allies decks, instead of the main weapon of the engine.


If I had to decide to R-list only one, the Horn without a doubt. Even without Tom you can summon very strong allies like Elrond, Celeborn and Uruviel. Elrond is base strength 8, while Celeborn and Uruviel can be reinforced to base strength 10 and 9 (with Lothlorien Woods and the Mirror); and there's always Asfaloth for further abuse. The Horn can counter Beatdown, Swarm and even Archery shadows very efficiently. And there's always Thror's Map and Pathfinder to prevent a specific site 7 from ditching them all.

Boromir can be healed by himself (DoMT), Aragorn KiE (LoG) or Elrond HtGG (any)... and now by Halbarad, which is very useful in double moves.

Skirmish canceling in Fellowship is too much a part of the original format to just throw that out altogether for wanting to force one card into the enhanced version of the format. Thus if Tom proves to be just too strong with his cancelling, it's more reasonable to throw him away than throw away the established format altogether.
Non RB skirmishes will still be cancellable, whatever decision is taken. So you can still send good old Pip towards The Balrog in the Bridge, and Hobbit Stealth him in the nick of time ;).

Now, regarding RB skirmishes, I think we are adding enough powerful tricks to balance the denial of cancelling them. [Shire] will get Goldberry and (hopefully) Tom, and (hopefully again) Bilbo BoTB. Goldberry is almost useless in absense of rivers, and King Block has only 1 river (Anduin Banks*), so this is her debut and she'll prove herself very mighty; you can even Pathfind the feared Tol Brandir just to move to a site 9 river and use her +5 strength pump, while Fearing the Worst can nullify it's disadvantage :twisted:. Bilbo + Pippin FtF can make [Shire] tales and PEWI an unbearable pain to the Shadow players; Bilbo won't need to cancel the skirmish, it will be enough to not be overwhelmed (Blade Tip will be useless to him, if he bears CWW and isn't the RB).

And Bilbo can be allowed as the only Alternative Ring-bearer, in case Hobbits don't get enough protection and boosting with those 3 [Shire] cards. And remember this quote:

"'Very well, very well, Master Elrond!' said Bilbo suddenly. 'Say no more! It is plain enough what you are pointing at. Bilbo the silly hobbit started this affair, and Bilbo had better finish it, or himself... When ought I to start?'"


Other cultures will get enough new power to face strong menaces instead of flying from them with Hobbit Stealth. Or will pack another Hobbit to play the stealth ;).

... I definitely agree that Tom Bombadil is something that could potentially be way too powerful. We will definitely be able to see through playtesting.

... I'm not sure if making him an R-list card would necessarily solve the issues that you brought up, but we can test to try and see :)

... It would be nice to see him (Tom) in the enhanced fotr, consistent with the lore... maybe playtesting will prove it's ok, but we'll have to see...
I too would love to see him present. So playtesting is the right thing to do with the Horn and Tom. Both with and without the R-list.

I preached A LOT for playtesting while we were working the TS Sealed decks ("that old Galilean thing"), but didn't playtested more than 2 or 3 times. Shame on me. Hope I can clean my name this time ;).
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 12:56:22 PM by Durin's Heir »

June 18, 2015, 06:31:23 PM
Reply #28

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 854
  • #AlexJonesWasRight
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2015, 06:31:23 PM »
Elladan and Elrohir could possibly stay lore-consistent... In any case, they could be play-tested and see how things go with them...if they prove to be too strong, no problem, just drop them.

I was thinking about the [Elven] skirmish events available in FOTR block:

- Ancient Enmity (Wow! +1 strength!)
- Border Defenses (+2 strength, or +4 against Lurtz and other archers)
- *Defiance (+2 strength, or +4 against Nazzies)
- Voice of Nimrodel (exert at a river or forest, to cancel a skirmish)

Fortunately, there's no:

- Forearmed (!!); Feathered (!); Flashing Steel; Supporting Fire; Valor; Sword-Wall.
- Fleet-footed; Still Needed; Uncertain Paths.
- Attunement (!); Final Shot (!)...

So with Elrohir on the board, each of them "makes each minion in that skirmish strength -2". Of those, only Defiance is really worrisome I believe. But even in that case, Arwen DoE and Elladan/Elrohir are the same against a Nazgul: Arwen is strength 9, +4 = 13; Elrohir is strength 7, +4, -2 to the Nazgul = 13.

There are some surprising tricks that can be done with Voice of Nimrodel (tale!) + SotBR + burdens + our beloved The Shire Countryside. And now Voice of Nimrodel can be used for an additional goal: exert another Elf at a river or forest (a site 6 ally?) and spot Elrohir to "make each minion skirmishing Elladan or Elrohir strength -2". You can still do the TSC thing by the way...

That's to break down the real chances of Elladan and Elrohir to change the format. Elven decks based on heavy event support would be cool I think...


ADDED: There's also no:

- Glimpse of Fate, Elven Sword and Banner of Elbereth (cycling + initiative abuse)
- Elven Sword and Naith Longbow (fixed strength bonus)
- Shadow Between (cycling + cheap healing)
- Cirdan, The Shipwright, Gil-Galad, Aiglos...

Which reduces a lot the abuse we commonly see in Movie Block with Elven decks.

Also, the only available FP cycling cards are Ottar, Longbottom Leaf and Gwemegil (no generic Elven Sword). And if you start Elladan and Elrohir, Gwemegil can clog your hand if Arwen isn't yet present. At least forces you to pack 3 or more copies of Arwen and Gwemegil, and start cycling somewhat later. That can be important to make extensive decks viable, which would mean less room for non [Elven] events (Elven Bow?) for the Twins.

All in all, they still must be playtested. But the skirmish potential for Elves in FOTR is very limited (in comparison to Movie Block or even TS), and they are miles behind Tom Bombadil and Grimbeorn in my (still theoretical) opinion.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 12:56:54 PM by Durin's Heir »

June 20, 2015, 06:16:48 PM
Reply #29

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 854
  • #AlexJonesWasRight
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2015, 06:16:48 PM »
Wraiths, and some toys (like the rings perhaps, as you mentioned) would add that extra fun element to keep the FP on their toes - corruption!... Corruption adds a whole different venue that the FP would need to prepare for. If they can't get Son of Hamfast working for one reason or another, Bombadil winning skirmishes may not be able to do anything for them!

I've been thinking about corruption for a while, and that goal gets an enourmous boost with the new additions. Not only the Nazgul can get The Sword of Flame, Fell Beast, the Barrow Wights and some [Wraith] Rings of Power, but other cultures will get a strong support too.

"'Moria! Moria! Wonder of the Norhtern World!'" Moria will get Gollum DaD to play the dreadful LttG Bomb, but that's not all for [Moria] corruption decks. The 2 additional versions of The Balrog (ToFas and TToKD) can be played at any site, and therefore bring new usefulness to small specific cards like Power and Terror and Must Do Without Hope. Goblin Spear can add burdens with the Cave Troll or those new Balrogs (and Throne of Isengard can make them fierce if needed), or with a goblin and Frenzy (Goblin Spear + Frenzy can recover you 2 burdens just removed by a self-exhausted Son of Hamfast!). With those 3 burden engines working for Moria, it's very likely we'll see Troubled Mountains being played more often.


Corruption Nazzies can benefit too from those additions to the other cultures. There are some [Wraith] decks in FOTR block that get support from The Balrog + Must Do Without Hope at site 5, and now will have the whole sitepath to add those burdens. Gollum DaD helps a lot to exhaust the RB. The Mouth of Sauron can protect Twilight Nazzies (Otsea RiT + Blade Tip, for instance), and Saruman + Throne can make a Twilight Witchie or Enquea fierce while creating another focus of trouble (a str 11 to 13, dmg +1 to +3, fierce minion).

All in all, corruption will be pressing the fellowship very often, so each deck will be forced to not neglect that part of the metagame.

I DO really like the addition of Saruman's Staff and Throne. A fierce Servant of the Eye can kill Boromir after he's exerted to allow the allies to fight. Really, Servant of the Eye is an excellent way for Isengard to kill Boromir regardless of his staff or not. You just need minions.

Fierce minions preferably, if you want to ensure Boromir is dead. That's very important if he's able to survive the first skirmish (he bears an Armor or is unwounded, or with events, Merry FtS or Gandalf tricks). If you use Servant of the Eye, then KoI won't be present to make Uruks fierce, so you will need other tricks like Hunt Them Down, Uruk-Hai Rampage, Uruk Fighter or Lurtz to kill him. Then the Throne of Isengard can make fierce that Uruk or [Isengard] Orc you want to use to erase Boromir!

I'm very glad that you like to include the Throne and Saruman's Staff ;). Saruman fights only in FOTR in the LOTR films, and Decipher could have made him a terrific minion to face, with spells depicting his duel with Gandalf. I really believe his staff should have been a Set 3 card, and Saruman's Ambition should pump any [Isengard] minion instead of only Uruks... but they made him instead a mere 10 strength, 2-card combo guy in the same Set as Eomer, TMoR. Meh...


I just found there IS indeed a pump for Saruman: Bill Ferny. And the Throne can make Ferny fierce, so he can support Saruman in both skirmishes. Therefore Saruman + Staff + Throne + Ferny (strength 17, dmg +2 or +3) can beat Tom Bombadil, as far as Boromir/Aragorn summons Tom only once (strength 16/17)...

As for cards lore-consistent. I'm pretty much on the same page as you there, I'd say. It would be really fun to incorporate a few reflections cards to the "additional valid" without going overboard. I'm going to post a breakdown of my opinions on the cards one by one and you can tell me what you think, if I'm onto something or way off hehe  :lol:

I'm waiting to see what you have to say about those Set 9 cards (and Andúril FotW). ;D
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 12:57:17 PM by Durin's Heir »

July 23, 2015, 02:45:29 PM
Reply #30

Dictionary

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Posts: 526
  • Duplicitous Deckbuilder
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2015, 02:45:29 PM »
I just read this entire discussion in one go, and I'm not sure I took it all in, so forgive me if I've got the wrong idea.

Is the idea to take Fellowship Block and add a bunch of specific cards from later on that are lore appropriate without adding too much of the complexity that came with the later sets?

For pumping Saruman, Men Will Fall is a valid event. You could justify it by saying it's Saruman scheming away in his tower about his plans (As you'd use it for him only, and not for [Isengard] Men. Although you said you were wary of Ages End, I think Aragorn, WtG and Boromir, DG are both thematic choices in terms of picture and ability (Although Aragorn may be overpowered?). Boromir's ability also is similar to BoC, but you'd want to have a setup with perhaps Horticulturalist and Farmer Maggot, CoR to keep the hobbits healthy. Would it be worth bringing in either of the Ugluks (Perhaps Two Towers one with some other trackers) as Ugluk was the main uruk in the books and there was no Lurtz (I think Ugluk first appears in Two Towers book, but then the whole thing with Boromir dying was in Two Towers originally, right?) Ugluk gets extra synergy with Tol Brandir, perhaps too much? It'd make for an interesting final foe at site 9.
Visit LOTR TCG wiki for strategy articles and extra card details, contributed by various community members. All set 1 cards finished.

July 24, 2015, 01:25:07 PM
Reply #31

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 854
  • #AlexJonesWasRight
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2015, 01:25:07 PM »
I'm glad to see you offering your point of view. We need as much good ideas as we can muster. Welcome to the talk, Dictionary!

Is the idea to take Fellowship Block and add a bunch of specific cards from later on that are lore appropriate without adding too much of the complexity that came with the later sets?
That's right. Lore is our goal. And we want to avoid adding game dynamics that came after the FOTR block (followers, initiative, culture tokens, site control, resistance of non-RB comps, threats, hunter...). There are some exceptions we can include, if we have no other options and don't offend too much those original dynamics like Saruman Of Many Colours (lurker) and Barrow Wights of Set 14 (enduring).

But we don't want to turn this into an "Expanded cards with FOTR sites" format, including each and every possible card with a picture or text according to the story of the FOTR book. The additions must be well-founded, and not too many if possible, to only "Enhance the FOTR block" as the title states and not to replace it.

Would it be worth bringing in either of the Ugluks... as Ugluk was the main uruk in the books and there was no Lurtz (I think Ugluk first appears in Two Towers book, but then the whole thing with Boromir dying was in Two Towers originally, right?)
Adding Ugluk may be a good addition, sounds good. You are right: in the FOTR book he's unnamed, but is the leader of those fought by Boromir when he blows the Horn. In the case of adding him, must be only Servant of Saruman as Ugly Fellow is a Hunter, and has an additional use of that keyword in his text.

Ugluk gets extra synergy with Tol Brandir, perhaps too much? It'd make for an interesting final foe at site 9.
At Tol Brandir, playing Ugluk SoS and 2 other Uruk trackers would cost a good bunch of twilight for a 9 strength, fierce uruk leader with fragile additions, and 2 of his henchmen. Not overpowered, at all: 10 twilight for he and 2x Uruk Scout (the only [Isengard] tracker in FOTR), and Fearing the Worst can make things even costlier. Perhaps we might go further and add 1 or 2 other [Isengard] trackers of Set 4, to add more diversification and viability.

Anyway, IMO they shouldn't come with [Isengard] tracker tricks of Set 4. Most of those don't fit with the FOTR book lore (they represent Uruks running with Merry + Pippin while the Three Amigos chase them).

For pumping Saruman, Men Will Fall is a valid event. You could justify it by saying it's Saruman scheming away in his tower about his plans (As you'd use it for him only, and not for [Isengard] Men.
Hmmm, the whole point of pumps for Saruman was merely to compare him to a strength 17 or 20, vit 9 Tom Bombadil, fighting and pumped due to the Horn of Boromir. We want to include the Throne of Isengard and Saruman's Staff, so he won't need pumps really (strength 13, dmg+2 or +3, fierce). And Men Will Fall doesn't pump Saruman, it reduces the strength to a companion (except Frodo, Sam and Bilbo), just needs to spot Saruman. Can be a good idea. :up:

In regards of Tom Bombadil, we must find a proper way to reduce his power, or exclude him (which is not the idea). R-listing him and/or the Horn can help (that is, max 1 copy per deck). Not allowing RB skirmishes to be cancelled is another option. We want to include Ranks Without Number as a counter to fighting allies, as [Isengard] is the only culture without access to strong counters to Boromir + Horn.

Although you said you were wary of Ages End, I think Aragorn, WtG and Boromir, DG are both thematic choices in terms of picture and ability (Although Aragorn may be overpowered?). Boromir's ability also is similar to BoC, but you'd want to have a setup with perhaps Horticulturalist and Farmer Maggot, CoR to keep the hobbits healthy.

I like Boromir, Destined Guide due to the resemblance to Boromir BoC's ability but not being an Alternative RB. He needs another companion exerting, but is a ranger and can start with both Mary and Poppins; seems a good balance. I personally love that skill of BoC / DG, it'd be a pity to not include it.

The other "fellowship" companions os Set 19... Merry removes cards from the game, Frodo refers to threats, Legolas adds threats; those are outsider mechanics. Gandalf is jus too powerful to be included. Aragorn may be a bit too powerful (though weak to grind and archery), Pippin lacks a limit (but is weak to Saruman's Power); those need to be studied. I like Boromir, Gimli and Sam, seem powerful but not excessively, and help to enrich and diversify the strategies. That's only my opinion of course.


We aren't sure about adding Alternative RBs. What do you think? If we aim for lore, Boromir, Galadriel, Smeagol and Gimli shouldn't be the RB, while Isildur shouldn't even be present (died some 3088 years before, that should mean something). But Bilbo... Bilbo offered himself to take the Ring to Mordor, so I vote for including Bilbo BotB as the sole possible ARB card, and allowing ARBs to be used. What do you guys think?

Thanks for helping us in this creative task. Welcome again!
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 12:53:38 PM by Durin's Heir »

July 24, 2015, 05:39:20 PM
Reply #32

Dictionary

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Posts: 526
  • Duplicitous Deckbuilder
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2015, 05:39:20 PM »
Uruk Runner and Uruk Chaser should both fit in, the latter is particularly good because he's a bit beefier than the existing trackers. Their names also don't sound too strange for Fellowship Block. If we then had Ugluk's sword, that ought to tie it up nicely.

On the subject of [Isengard], I would highly recommend the TT Broad-Bladed Sword; it is far superior to the original, which is pretty much never used. I know it's not really helpful lore-wise (But nor is it bad) I just think with all the Fellowship support uruks could do with a decent hand weapon.

I'm undecided about the Horn. I don't think encouraging spamming Such A Little Thing is very healthy for the format, as it breaks all the other Boromir strategies that don't use the Horn, which could be a little NPE. Going off that, I'd probably either R-List Horn or even X-List it, as people can still pack 4 One Whom Men Would Follow for a fighting Tom Bombadill. Alternatively, we could replace Defender of Minas Tirith with Destined Guide, as the former's regeneration is a large part of the problem. Ranks without Number does provide a strong horn counter though (Could be used with KoI) so maybe it'll be alright. With respect to Tom Bombadil's text, I don't think the cancelling skirmishes is a major problem, since the cost is exponential, and one use at a later site will cripple him, as there isn't that much healing for him.

Alternate Ring-Bearers probably don't fit in here in my opinion. Bilbo is a bit of an exception, but even he was old and frail, and didn't want to part with the ring. Also not sure what practical benefit a Bilbo RB brings, other than being able to use all the "Spot Bilbo" cards from the beginning. I liked the Alternate RBs from a "What if..." point of a view, so I think they fit well in Expanded and maybe Movie, but less certain about it for this format.

I particularly liked the Anduril, FotW idea, seeing as he had that in the book anyway. I would probably only allow that one though, as it's incredibly powerful, but at least has the drawback of preventing the use of other weapons.

What's your opinion on cards with some useful text, and other irrelevant text? For example, Urgency fits in nicely with other weather, and might finally make Uruk Messenger useful, since it remains in play. But of course there are no ents.

Some other ideas:
* Whip of Many Thongs, Weapon of Flame and Shadow would protect the Balrog against Stealth and make Fierce, which would help a lot – Again, perhaps too strong?
* Lurtz's Bow can be played on a [Isengard] uruk despite being [Uruk], so that could add some flavour. Being able to give extra vitality to uruks such as Uruk Guard could be overpowered though. You'd have to ignore second part of text too.
* Gimli, OG might be a bit too powerful, could be drawing 3-4 cards each turn. What about Dwarven Delegate, 0P62? He's pretty much useless anywhere else, but some might prefer a passive bonus to Gimli, SoG's risk-reward ability.
* What about Durin's Tower? Would work only as a pump, but is useful for Balrog, Troll and Watcher. Also it's one of few forbidden Moria cards remaining.
* Lost in the Woods would be interesting to use in Fellowship, due to the fixed site path, but it might still be unbalanced, and I'm not even sure why Nazgul got all those bonuses from forests later on. (Do they like forests?)

Thanks for the welcome! I hope we can make something come of this format :)
Visit LOTR TCG wiki for strategy articles and extra card details, contributed by various community members. All set 1 cards finished.

July 28, 2015, 07:24:26 PM
Reply #33

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 854
  • #AlexJonesWasRight
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2015, 07:24:26 PM »
Thanks for the welcome! I hope we can make something come of this format :)
So I hope. But I must thank you instead, for collaborating with this project and keeping the ball rolling. :up: ;)


Those Uruk trackers look good for a beatdown, but not for a swarm (which is the main potential of Tol Brandir). For a swarm, we have only Uruk Foot Soldier and Uruk Plains Runner (there's also Uruk Pursuer and Uruk Seeker, but those are pretty weak in this format). Foot Soldier and Plains Runner are very easy to kill, but that can be countered by KoI and Broad Bladed Sword. All in all, I'd add 1 and 1: Uruk Plains Runner for a swarming Shadow, and Uruk Runner or Chaser for a beatdown. Those are fierce by themselves, so Worry gets aided by including them.

About Ugluk's Sword, that's a great card but has the problem of not being consistent with the lore of the FOTR book (or movie). The Broad-Bladed Sword might bring new game mechanics, allowing a non-fighting Saruman SotE to cause big troubles without worrying about archery. That can be a good addition, and doesn't depart too much from the lore. Even Black Shapes Crawling can be another good addition, as KoI can prevent the wounds and [Isengard] weapons might get more importance.

Any version of Boromir will get a lot of healing here (Halbarad, Elrond HtGG, KiE, Aragorn's Pipe; that's at least 2 wounds per turn), so banning DoMT won't solve the issue of the Horn. As posted before, I think that R-listing the Horn can be the best option, as OWMWF can act as a substitute (while you still don't draw it), but the Horn of Boromir plays an important part of the story, so Dmaz and I didn't want to remove it. I'd vote for keeping DoMT and adding Destined Guide.

The problem with Tom Bombadil cancelling skirmishes, is that in FOTR block [Shire] events can only cancel skirmishes until site 5, after that only against Nazgul (OEG) and in fierce skirmishes (Bolger) you can cancel, and at a high cost. Bombadil kicks that site 5 to 8. So I believe that RB skirmishes shouldn't be cancellable. You'd still be able to cancel skirmishes of other hobbits, so that part of both gameplay and story won't be removed, but merely balanced.


For the A-RB, I think the same as you my fellow. I know Bilbo didn't want to carry the Ring (though he offered to do so), but that can be portrayed by his lower resistance and the moving penalty. Besides those disadvantages, there are HUGE benefits of having Bilbo as RB: CWW makes him unkillable by non-archery wounds, RBoW can provide plenty of drawing, PEWI can play a specific Hobbit from draw deck, Stone Trolls... and Pippin FtF makes those tales invulnerable to Saruman's Power.


- Anduril FOTW will negate both Flaming Brand and the overpowered Aragorn's Bow, while adding new mechanics like playing sites 3 & 6. RotN can take advantage of that +1 vitality. And choke Frodo + Aragorn decks will take that vitality bonus pretty well, using a Coat of Mail instead of an Armor.

- Urgency + No Ordinary Storm = condition protection :up:. And Urgency can also help minions that have no pumps or very few, like Saruman or The Balrog. I like the idea.

- Lurtz's Bow is the only [Uruk] card I know that can be played with [Isengard] Uruks, and that vitality addition can be useful in many combos. I we add it, you might still be able to use that Archery skill, by discarding 2 other copies of Lurtz's Bow (very unlikely). :up:

- Durin's Tower can help other unique [Moria] minions, like Troll's Keyward (bearing a Moria Axe!), Ancient Chieftain, Guard Commander (frequent victim of FP tanks), Archer Commander (ditto)... I like it. As a side note, the Watcher in the Water is not a real threat in absense of Evil-Smelling Fens. Should we add it?

- Lost in the Woods can pump Bill Ferny. And no, they don't like forests :lol:, they just pursued and ambushed hobbits at forests. I don't think it fits well with the lore and the FOTR format mechanics. But may pump Barrow Wights too, which is something to consider. There are only 3 cards in FOTR block that can work together with Set 16 Wraiths: Gates of the Dead City, Otsea LoM and Morgul Skulker. And Ferny, of course. But the lack of tricks for Barrow Wights can make them unpopular and even weak, so adding 1 or 2 lore-consistent cards for any [Wraith] minion will be very important for them.

I don't like LitW here. Urgency can help, but still is not enough. Between Nazgul and Prey is their main weapon in Expanded. Dark Swooping Shadows can be an awesome card for this goal (and would be useful only for Wraiths, not for Nazgul). Houses of Lamentation can be good too. Nazgul Scimitar? Flung Into the Fray? In Twilight perhaps, but it's too powerful. I'd vote for Dark Swooping Shadows and Houses of Lamentation. Not exactly lore-consistent, but don't depart too much from the story.

- Gimli OG won't be drawing more cards than Book of Mazarbul, or Elrond LoR + Ottar (or + Celeborn). But can turn Dwarven Armor into a much more viable card. Gimli would be drawing cards before the Book of Mazarbul triggers and that can be very helpful to assemble much faster, but after that won't help much more.

- The card I cannot like in this format is Whip of Many Thongs, WoFaS, because it will kill event based FP decks (SotSF, Flurry of Blows/Axe Strike, Elladan and Elrohir...). Given the power rise in this format, pumps and other events will be much necessary most of the times. At underground sites The Balrog, TToKD won't be killed and will be unable to use the other WoMT's skill, I think it's a good balance and don't like the idea of disturbing it.

A last thing: we might need to keep the account of the "Additional Valid list" cards, at the end we might be adding too many cards and can be unnecesarily bloated.

I'm waiting to see what do other guys think about Dictionary's ideas. Dmaz, Sgtdraino, Bib... Everyone is welcome!
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 12:54:01 PM by Durin's Heir »

July 30, 2015, 05:26:34 AM
Reply #34

Dictionary

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Posts: 526
  • Duplicitous Deckbuilder
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2015, 05:26:34 AM »
I agree with you about the uruks, it'd be interesting to see Black Shapes Crawling see play, I've never used it. I agree about R-Listing the horn as well, that seems fair.

I'm still uncertain about making RB's skirmishes uncancellable. A lot of Fellowships are small in Fellowship Block, and it usually doesn't hurt to pack some stealth for these just to provide some Frodo (Or Bilbo, in this case) insurance. These Fellowships won't necessarily be using any other hobbits, so they're a bit stuck from sites 1 - 5 if RB skirmishes can't be cancelled (Noble Intentions maybe ;) ). Makes the Balrog more dangerous for non-hobbit freeps too, but I don't see that as a major problem.

What are we aiming for the X-List to look like? I assume from the KoI discussion that it's going to have as few cards as possible. Another point that might be worth considering is X-Listing Sam, SoH, as he single-handedly makes Corruption a whole lot harder in Fellowship, and he'll make life harder for [Wraith] Wraiths as well. Being a companion, the R-List wouldn't hurt him much, although seeing as he is splashed in some decks it might help a little. Thoughts on this?

Evil-Smelling Fens seems a must for me, it's making an otherwise unused strategy viable, and it's harmless in the absence of Gollum (Or is Gollum present?). I know you've already discussed this, but just to put my own opinion forward, I would add the Ages End tentacles, but not the Ages End Watcher, as I think he warps the playing field too much. That would make Tentacles pretty much a fully viable strategy, and force people to use Keeper of Westgate, which would make it stand apart from Expanded Tentacles Decks. If condition discard hurts Evil Smelling Fens too much and Gollum is not present, then we could chuck in Deceit as a shield for it.

The [Wraith] Wraiths are of course a conundrum, as many of the cards that benefit them are extremely unthematic (Morgul Scimitar ;D) They'd get extra synergy from Ettenmoors though, and they never roam, so they have their own advantages, perhaps just as a sub-set of a Nazgul Deck.

I agree about that Additional Valid list, I'm just throwing ideas out there at the moment, but the list could get very messy. At least if it were organised by culture it would probably be readable, but if it were being read on Gemp, it might look a bit random to the new player.
Visit LOTR TCG wiki for strategy articles and extra card details, contributed by various community members. All set 1 cards finished.

August 10, 2015, 05:48:07 AM
Reply #35

Dictionary

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Posts: 526
  • Duplicitous Deckbuilder
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2015, 05:48:07 AM »
Just had another thought, could we add Disarmed? It fits in thematically, and is kinda cool, but there's little incentive to use it in the set it came out in. The idea of transference itself isn't new, since Nazgul use it, even if the concept of Freeps doing it was not a thing back in Fellowship Block.

EDIT: And another thought - Final Triumph is another [Uruk] card that affects [Isengard], so we could add that to synergise with Lurtz's bow and to spice things up a lot too :)
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 04:20:23 AM by Dictionary »
Visit LOTR TCG wiki for strategy articles and extra card details, contributed by various community members. All set 1 cards finished.

August 25, 2015, 08:32:59 PM
Reply #36

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 854
  • #AlexJonesWasRight
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2015, 08:32:59 PM »
Disarmed... I always thought that card was overpowered for its purpose. It's transferred at maneuver but should be at skirmish, doesn't need an exertion, discards each Shadow card on bearer including non-weapon artifacts like Ring of Ire or Saruman's Staff (or weapon artifacts like The Balrog's Sword!). I mean, what were they thinking? It'd have meta usefulness here, but it's OP for that purpose.

Instead of Disarmed, what about Sword of Boromir and Guardian? Guardian can be a bit excessive as it can make Aragorn fight too much (I think no one wants that), and uses the Toil keyword. But Sword of Boromir depicts him extraordinarily well as a true hero, allowing him to fight multiple times by replacing Mary-poppins only, and would give an use to packing more copies of Shield of Boromir, Armor, Coat of Mail and Athelas. And makes a nice combo with Destined Guide.

Final Triumph can be a bit too much. Uruks are all damage +1, and Saruman's Power controls conditions like the Saga of Elendil, Endurance of Dwarves or the Tale of Gil-Galad... too powerful.


What about The Art of Gandalf? There is a good bunch of [Gandalf] spells in FOTR block, and that card can even stack [Isengard] spells (which may be useful if you have more copies than you need at the moment). That would give new dynamics to Gandalf-centered decks, and even to FotS Trust Me decks which start Gandy and Gandalf's Cart.


Will be posting soon about the other points you make. I'm sorry for answering with such delay :(.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 12:52:15 PM by Durin's Heir »

August 25, 2015, 10:42:36 PM
Reply #37

TheSangheiliGeek

  • *
  • Information Offline
  • Goblin
  • Posts: 16
  • I suppose that I should put something here........
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2015, 10:42:36 PM »
I just read this whole discussion, and think that it's a marvelous idea!
I will keep an eye on this thread, and add my input when I feel as if it is of value.

For now, I will say that I like the idea of including the Sword of Boromir. Using it to discard the Shield of Boromir would add a little bit of flavor I think, as he would be using his shield to defend Merry or Pippin!

Keep at this! :up:
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 10:45:17 PM by TheSangheiliGeek »

August 26, 2015, 04:06:42 AM
Reply #38

Dictionary

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Posts: 526
  • Duplicitous Deckbuilder
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2015, 04:06:42 AM »
@Durin's Heir: It's interesting to get another perspective on that, I've always thought Disarmed was a pretty useless card. 2 twilight for a strength -1 debuff. Its only real advantage is discarding the stuff of the bearer, and in my experience that's only really horrible for warg-riders. In fellowship block, I rarely see Nazgul, Sauron Orcs or Uruks with any possessions at all (And Goblin Scimitars have already done the damage, plus there's Plundered Armories), and many people don't even use the Balrog, although I agree discarding his stuff - or Saruman's Staff for that matter, is pretty nasty. Black Traitor would solve that problem though, but perhaps we have too many Sarumans already. It would probably hurt Broad-Bladed Sword, but as you said there's Saruman's Power.

I don't suppose we can add stuff and then immediately R-List? I would definitely do that for Guardian if that were the case. Sword of Boromir I like though, although it'd be a pain with Merry, FtS. [Gondor] card is a tad vague too, means you could discard The Saga of Elendil or No Stranger to the Shadows, but nevermind. At least it'd give incentive to use Boromir's Cloak, then you could discard if unneeded.

Final Triumph I'm also uncertain about, it costs 4 twilight, which is the same as a minion, and many uruks in Fellowship Block have only 2 vitality, combine that with archery and your uruks are hardly going to dominate the battlefield with it. The healthiest uruk is Troop of Uruk-hai, and even that can't beat Gandalf. Saruman's Power is good, but it's also an exertion and only really hurts Endurance of Dwarves in my opinion, as it's the only non-unique vitality condition. The worst that could happen is a 2 vitality companion overwhelmed by a Troop (Or Lurtz with Bow etc.) but if they only have 2 vitality, then more often than not they'd be killed anyway! I think the card would probably be most useful against a Str 14 Aragorn (and Elladan and Elrohir I suppose), it gives uruks a way to beat him, and forces the opponent to not focus purely on strength.

The Art of Gandalf sounds good :up: Not the sort of card I like using, but I can't see it being that OP. Unless someone stacks 4 SotSF on it and withdraws them at site 9...

Don't worry about the delay, I'm just glad we can keep the thread active ;)

@TheSangheliGeek: Welcome! It's good to see another individual following this thread. Hopefully dmaz will add his opinion soon as well, I'd love to see this format get implemented.
Visit LOTR TCG wiki for strategy articles and extra card details, contributed by various community members. All set 1 cards finished.

September 10, 2015, 05:32:07 PM
Reply #39

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 854
  • #AlexJonesWasRight
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2015, 05:32:07 PM »
- Non-cancellable RB skirmishes: I don't think any FP should have big problems with this (except Solo Frodo). The new starting fellowships will be huge and won't need to cancel skirmishes so bad. Non-hobbit fellowships will have Elladan & Elrohir, Glorfindel, Dain Ironfoot & strength 7 dwarves, Halbarad, perhaps we include Strider and/or Grimbeorn... while hobbit fellowships will be able to cancel skirmishes with the other guys. Noble Intentions will help in one case, Halfling Deftness in the other. Or Boromir SoD... + Narsil + Saga. There will be a great power increase in the Shadow side but that's to counter the power increase of the FP, so allowing to play a Hobbit Stealth to save Aragorn or Elrond from facing a full-powered Witch King or Host of Moria seems a bit misaimed to me.

Besides, Tom Bombadil brings the problem of making hobbit skirmishes too easy to cancel, now until site 8. That's good for hobbit fellowships, but other cultures should rely on what they will do best: fighting.

- Evil-Smelling Fens: Gollum DaD is actually present. Dark as Darkness represents Gollum's part at Moria and the Anduin River very well, and also will help a lot some Shadows like Lost to the Goblins, Twilight Nazgul, archery, Worry and Sauron grind. But adding Evil-Smelling Fens might not cause trouble anyway, because: 1) Gollum won't have other tricks to replay him/play him sooner (Web, Captured, We Must Have It), or to make him strong and perilous; 2) you won't use both DaD's skill and the Fens at the same time (you'd need to have 5 vitality); and 3) 6 or 8 card slots plus [3] each time to replay often a given key minion like Saruman, the Cave Troll or Isengard Smith isn't really overpowered in my opinion. In that case, Deceit can be really useful as the tentacles suffer a lot from FP condition control, moreover at maneuver (Secret Sentinels is ubicuous).

I agree with the Set 19 tentacles in absense of the Set 19 Watcher. Good call!

- Barrow Wights: Agree, those additions would be too unthematic. I think Riders In Black would work well as a pump for Wraiths, and wouldn't be unconsistent at all. And they get synergy with Ettenmoors as you say, besides FP archery makes them stronger.

- Disarmed: Costs 2 but rangers can counter that with ease, and doesn't clog your hand. We want to give power to bearable Shadow cards like Saruman's Staff, Fell Beast, some [Wraith] Rings, Goblin Spear (+ Frenzy, for Moria corruption), The Balrog's Sword + Whip of Many Thongs (with non-underground Balrogs and Power and Terror), even Broad-Bladed Sword. And in the normal FOTR format I see often equipment for Nazgul (Sword, Pale Blade, Morgul Blade and sometimes Black Steed) and the Cave Troll, and high vitality Goblins can use the mighty Moria Axe (I have a very competitive deck based on that card). And Saruman's Power doesn't solve the issue, unless you pack 4 copies and use it each time Disarmed hits the board.

But actually my main discordance is the lack of flavor: it should only discard weapons, during the [Gondor] man's skirmish, and the Shadow player should have some alternative cost like exerting the targeted minion. With that in mind, I'd have made it this way:

[1] Disarmed [Gondor]
Condition • Support Area
-3 strength
While borne by a minion, discard each weapon it bears. Limit 1 per minion.
Skirmish: Exert a [Gondor] Man to transfer this condition from your support area to a minion skirmishing him or her. Its owner may exert that minion to prevent this.


- The Art of Gandalf: In FOTR block you can stack 4 copies of No Mere Ranger (+ the Saga of Elendil) in the Shards of Narsil, and at site 8 play a fresh Aragorn from hand (or from deck with Prancing Pony + Hobbit Farmer)... both are unlikely to happen. I'm glad that you approve this idea.

- Guardian: R-listing Guardian seems VERY interesting. Toil isn't a FOTR block mechanic, but a single copy of a single card shouldn't cause too much trouble. :up:

- Sword of Boromir: Yes, it might become a real pain with Merry FtS. But requires to discard cards borne by Boromir, so he won't be fully equiped when facing the minion Merry was going to fight, and Boromir often will fight twice. That's important when you are forced to discard an Armor or the Saga of Elendil to save Merry from a tank like the Cave Troll or Lurtz. And most of those cards will be adding twilight when played.

To counter Merry there are good cards like Throw Yourself In Next Time, You Bring Great Evil or The Nine Servants of Sauron.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 12:52:53 PM by Durin's Heir »

September 12, 2015, 06:50:17 AM
Reply #40

Dictionary

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Posts: 526
  • Duplicitous Deckbuilder
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2015, 06:50:17 AM »
I must say, you've convinced me on pretty much every point here. The only other argument I could make for Disarmed would be to R-List it, I can understand why it would warp the format otherwise. I'm glad you like Deceit :) You make a really good point with Art of Gandalf/Shards of Narsil too, I wouldn't mind trying out that strategy in Fellowship Block with the shards. It's also true that a Sword of Boromir deck filled with [Gondor] junk isn't going to have much space for other stuff. What did you think about my argument for Final Triumph though? Do you still think it's too powerful?

EDIT: Forgot to mention before, but I love Moria Axe ;D it would be so overpowered if only goblins had more vitality/fierce options. Is that competitive deck the one with Dwarves and Gandalf? Or maybe I'm thinking of something else...
« Last Edit: September 12, 2015, 04:50:24 PM by Dictionary »
Visit LOTR TCG wiki for strategy articles and extra card details, contributed by various community members. All set 1 cards finished.

September 12, 2015, 05:15:34 PM
Reply #41

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 854
  • #AlexJonesWasRight
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2015, 05:15:34 PM »
The problem I fear with Final Triumph is rising the power of Uruks even more. Saruman's Staff + Throne (KoI supporting uruks, with strength 13 dmg+2 fierce!) and Lurtz's Bow will provide strong reinforcements to Beatdown Uruk decks (while Gollum DaD and The Art of Gandalf -stacking Cruel Caradhras- will help Worry decks). Uruks rely on strength and have plenty of ways to rise it, so allowing'em to swap that aspect if they are finally losing a key skirmish when their tricks and nature isn't enough might be a bit too much.

Moreover, Final Triumph makes them able to kill companions too easily as most FP fighters have only 3 vitality (and Saruman's Power gets rid of vitality conditions), KoI and Broad-Bladed Sword will protect you if you face archery (and archery should be less dominant), Uruks can easily become fierce to wear down the fellowship, you can exert/wound companions in other phases than skirmish ([Sauron] grind -now with Grishnak & Orc Patrol!-, [Moria] archery, [Isengard] Orcs, Orthanc Berserker, OoYMDT) and many Uruks have good vitality (Troop + Lurtz's Bow will have 5!). So it's not a matter of only overwhelming a guy with 2 vitality who bears an Armor (or killing him if he/she doesn't). What about Fror, Gimli, Ironfoot, Elladan, Elrohir, a self-exerted Gandalf... The cost of [4] might look high, but if we R-list some choke cards like NSttS to allow more expensive Shadow strategies to be viable, 4 free twilight will be available very often. Uruk Brood and Uruk Slayer can use that twilight in absense of a trick that changes so much the usual game dynamics.

The FP side will have to focus on strength or skirmish survival tricks, but also on corruption as that aspect of the game will have a huge power rise.


EDIT: About Moria Axe, yes, it's that conditionless Dwarves deck supported by Gandy, Double Edged Dwarven Axes. Though that decklist is a bit outdated. I'll post the current list, mainly differs in that you get Gandalf much sooner.

The only way to add more vitality options is Host of Moria I think, and the Throne of Isengard (+ Of Many Colours!) can make a muscular Goblin fierce. So if we add the Host, Moria Axe beatdown decks will have a good power rise. Thanks for mentioning it!
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 12:53:15 PM by Durin's Heir »

September 12, 2015, 06:44:51 PM
Reply #42

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 854
  • #AlexJonesWasRight
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2015, 06:44:51 PM »
Perhaps R-listing Disarmed will be a good idea. :up:

What about Shadowy Mount?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2015, 07:41:47 PM by Durin's Heir »

September 14, 2015, 02:16:01 AM
Reply #43

Dictionary

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Posts: 526
  • Duplicitous Deckbuilder
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #43 on: September 14, 2015, 02:16:01 AM »
I like Shadowy Mount, can't see it being that overpowered given what's already here, especially considering the 2 twilight cost. It plays underground though, which is a tad annoying, but then so does Fell Beast, so I guess we'll just have to live with that.

I'm going back through all our conversations to try and make a tangible of list of all the stuff we've come up with so far, once I'm done I'll post it and you guys can check that everything meets with your approval (Since there may be mistakes, or controversial cards). I must say that the Additional Valid part is pretty long :-S
Visit LOTR TCG wiki for strategy articles and extra card details, contributed by various community members. All set 1 cards finished.

September 14, 2015, 12:58:36 PM
Reply #44

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 854
  • #AlexJonesWasRight
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2015, 12:58:36 PM »
Yes, the "Additional Valid" (AV) list will be very long. The "Valid Sets" (VS) list will comprise Sets 1-3, plus Set 16 (Barrow Wights & Dagorlad Wraiths). There are many Set 14 cards that will be included but not the whole Set, so a way of reducing the AV list is to include Set 14 as a VS, and each card we don't want from that set should be added to the X-list. Those are:

- [Gondor] Duilin, Ranger From Blackroot Vale
- [Gondor] Duinhir, Tall Man of Blackroot Vale

- [Men] Furious Hillman
- [Men] Swarming Hillman

- [Orc] Half-Troll of Far Harad
- [Orc] Horror of Harad

Still under consideration:
- [Gandalf] Grimbeorn, Beorning Chieftain (?) (We'll need to playtest)
- [Uruk] Uruk-Hai Scout (?) (We'll need to playtest)

Therefore, the remaining Set 14 cards will be included to play, but will be excluded from the AV list:

- [Dwarven] Dain Ironfoot, King Under the Mountain
- [Elven] Gildor Inglorion, of the House of Finrod
- [Elven] Elladan, Son of Elrond
- [Elven] Elrohir, Son of Elrond
- [Gandalf] Brand, King of Dale
- [Gondor] Halbarad, Ranger of the North
- [Uruk] Uruk-Hai Healer

- [Gandalf] Grimbeorn, Beorning Chieftain (?)
- [Uruk] Uruk-Hai Scout (?)

That way we can save a good bunch of AV list space (7 to 9 cards) and thus also headaches to Gemp players.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 01:35:18 PM by Durin's Heir »

September 14, 2015, 04:28:51 PM
Reply #45

Dictionary

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Posts: 526
  • Duplicitous Deckbuilder
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #45 on: September 14, 2015, 04:28:51 PM »
Ah good, I wasn't sure if you intended to x-list some of the less useful ones. This list is of course mostly yours and dmaz's ideas, so point out anything you don't like and I'll correct it (It should mostly reflect the stuff you agreed on, though). I have attempted to compile our thoughts and discussions in a list below, but it's built on several assumptions, listed thus:

1)   I have listed Reflections and Expanded Middle-Earth as valid sets, with several of their cards on the x-list. This helps slim down the Additional Valid list (As you just mentioned)
2)   No alternate RBs, save Bilbo.
3)   There was early discussion about which [Gandalf] men should be added. This list currently goes with dmaz's point in Reply #10. Personally I dislike Erland and Dasron, but I might prefer Librarian over Barliman, as I'm not sure how useful Barliman's ability is.
4)   We still need to iron out generic weapons for cultures.
5)   Since we R-Listed Horn of Boromir, the extra Horn counters from later sets are not currently in the list, including Ranks Without Number, as several effective counters to it were mentioned (And Saruman, SotE + Staff kills Boromir). Tom Bombadil is not yet R-Listed.
6)   I've included as much stuff as possible for the moment. We may want to review and cut stuff from the list that isn't having much of an impact, to help thin down the list.
7)   I currently have Grimbeorn on the list, as it seemed like the consensus before was that he was overpowered. On top of that, I would agree with such a view, I think he would seriously skew the format otherwise (Particularly with his axe)

Enhanced Fellowship Block:
Valid sets: 1, 2, 3, 9, 14, 16
Sites from block: Fellowship
Ring-bearer skirmish can be cancelled: No

X-listed: Grimbeorn, Beorning Chieftain; Elendil, the Tall; Gil Galad, Elven High King; Durin III; Linnar; Uri; Sindri; Gimli, BoG; Galadriel, BoW; Boromir, BoC; Smeagol, BoGS; Isildur, BoH; Horror of Harad; Furious Hillman; Swarming Hillman; Half-Troll of Far Harad; Duilin, Ranger from Blackroot Vale; Duinhir, Tall Man of Blackroot Vale; Slippery as Fishes; Huorn; Horn of the mark; Aiglos; Sapling of the White Tree; Seeing Stone of Orthanc

R-listed: Guardian, Horn of Boromir, Disarmed, No Stranger to the Shadows

Additional valid: The Balrog, the Terror of Khazad-Dum; The Balrog, Terror of Flame and Shadow; Durin's Tower; Reaching Tentacle; Strong Tentacle; Barliman Butterbur, Red-Faced Landlord; Beorning Axe; Ghan-buri-Ghan, Chieftain of the Woses; Radagast's Staff; The Art of Gandalf; Tom Bombadil's Hat; The Mouth of Sauron, Lieutenant of Barad-Dur; Grishnakh, Orc Captain; Orc Patrol; Eye of Barad-dur; Saruman's Staff, Wizard's Device; Saruman, Of Many Colours; Throne of Isengard; Lurtz's Bow; Ugluk, SoS; Men Will Fall; Uruk Chaser; Uruk Plains Runner; Broad-Bladed Sword; Black Shapes Crawling; Urgency; Fell Beast; Ring of Savagery; Ring of Terror; The Pale Blade, Sword of Flame; Dark Swooping Shadows; Houses of Lamentation; Shadowy Mount; Riders in Black; Gimli, OG; Thorin III, Stonehelm; Thrarin, Smith of Erebor; Grimir, Dwarven Emissary; Elrond, Elven Lord; Guardian; Disarmed; Anduril, FOTW; Aragorn, Strider; Boromir, DG; Sword of Boromir; Evil-Smelling Fens; Deceit;

Other possibilites: Orc Cutthroat, Loathsome, Ranks Without Number, Guidance of the Istari, Naith Longbow, Sword of Gondor

I count 44 Additional Valid cards. Counting the number of cards in Gemp's Standard X-List (The longest list), I get a bit over 50. So it's not too bad relative to that. But the real question I guess is how readable it is. Listed by culture, we get this:

[Sauron]
The Mouth of Sauron, Lieutenant of Barad-Dur
Grishnakh, Orc Captain
Orc Patrol
Eye of Barad-dur

[Isengard]
Saruman's Staff, Wizard's Device
Saruman, Of Many Colours
Throne of Isengard;
Ugluk, SoS
Men Will Fall
Uruk Chaser
Uruk Plains Runner
Broad-Bladed Sword
Lurtz's Bow (Technically [Uruk] but it comes to more or less the same thing here)
Urgency
Black Shapes Crawling

[Wraith]
Fell Beast
Ring of Savagery
Ring of Terror
The Pale Blade, Sword of Flame
Shadowy Mount
Dark Swooping Shadows
Houses of Lamentation
Riders in Black

[Moria]
The Balrog, the Terror of Khazad-Dum
The Balrog, Terror of Flame and Shadow
Durin's Tower
Reaching Tentacle
Strong Tentacle

[Gollum]
Evil Smelling Fens
Deceit

[Dwarven]
Gimli, OG
Thorin III, Stonehelm
Thrarin, Smith of Erebor
Grimir, Dwarven Emissary

[Elven]
Elrond, Elven Lord

[Gondor]
Guardian
Disarmed
Anduril, FOTW
Boromir, DG
Sword of Boromir
Aragorn, Strider

[Shire]
Tom Bombadil's Hat

[Gandalf]
Barliman Butterbur, Red-Faced Landlord
Beorning Axe
Ghan-buri-Ghan, Chieftain of the Woses
Radagast's Staff
The Art of Gandalf

So assuming I've compiled everything correctly (Fingers crossed!) this is what we have so far. It looks like there's less stuff for FP, but I guess that was the point because sets 9 and 14 are mostly FP. What are your thoughts?

EDIT 1: Durin's Heir's points (See below) have been implemented. The less confident ones (Sword of the Fallen, The Flame of Anor etc.) have not yet been added.

EDIT 2: Eye of Barad dur added for the time being. Added some weapons to the Other Possibilities List - Any feedback on items in this list would be appreciated.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 08:22:22 AM by Dictionary »
Visit LOTR TCG wiki for strategy articles and extra card details, contributed by various community members. All set 1 cards finished.

September 14, 2015, 06:00:00 PM
Reply #46

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 854
  • #AlexJonesWasRight
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2015, 06:00:00 PM »
Barliman is better than Librarian. The latter needs tokens and/or followers, which aren't FOTR block mechanics and won't be present. On the other hand, Barliman is lore consistent and can be decent with a Beorning Axe, a Flaming Brand and King Brand (str 8, vit 4), and an Armor or Coat of Mail. And his skill can be useful if you need [Gandalf] events, moreover with Strength of Spirit or Might of Numenor.


The list isn't perfect, but almost. I think you forgot about Aragorn Strider. Perhaps Orc Cutthroat can be considered. I think you are adding The Binding Ring to the format (it's not on the X-list); that's a nice accident! ;)

We must keep Loathsome and Ranks Without Number in mind. R-listing the Horn of Boromir might not be sufficient, and those cards have usefulnesses for themselves.

Dark Swooping Shadows and Houses of Lamentation should be out IMO (aren't lore consistent; DSS can add threats and the Houses makes Bill Ferny too dangerous); Riders in Black should be in their place. But must be unbugged first!


There are more Set 9 cards to X-list. Those are Slippery as Fishes (tank Gollum!), Huorn (unconsistent, and a durable cannon fodder), Horn of the Mark (powerful and doesn't fit), Sapling of the White Tree (we don't want an unkillable Boromir!), Aiglos (Greenleaf, oh my!), Seeing Stone of Orthanc (unconsistent, and uses threats).

Ent Draught, Narya Ring of Fire and The Red Arrow are useless. Merry's Dagger, Pippin's Dagger, Freca are almost useless. So we won't waste space in adding them to the X-list. :up:

In the middleground there are these cards:
- Strands of Elven Hair is almost useless, but brings culture tokens which isn't in our plans.
- Sack of the Shire can only be loosely considered as part of Frodo's vision at the Mirror.
- The [Dwarven] Rings can help Dwarves, but lorewise were lost to Sauron or to Dragon Fire (I know, I'm a Dwarf and should keep my mouth shut).
- Everyone Knows isn't lore consistent, but has little use without vitality boosters
- What about Sauron, the Lord of the Rings? He could take form without The One, unlike PJ's idea in the first trilogy, and without threats and controlled sites only burdens (and Ithil Stone) will cheapen him, but still don't know if should be present so far from Mordor.
- Ithil Stone and Seeing Stone of Minas Anor were present, though their part was revealed at TTT and ROTK. May be ok, like The Mouth of Sauron.

Those are cards we must study a bit more. I'd say yes to all at first glance, but a further review can bring more light.

That's all by now. Thanks for your valuable effort :up:. Try to order the list by card type (comps, allies, artifacts, possessions, events, conditions) or by theme (Saruman OMC, Staff, Throne; Ugluk, Chaser, Plains Runner; Broad-bladed Sword, Black Shapes Crawling...).
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 01:50:32 PM by Durin's Heir »

September 14, 2015, 06:52:45 PM
Reply #47

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 854
  • #AlexJonesWasRight
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2015, 06:52:45 PM »
4)   We still need to iron out generic weapons for cultures.
This point is very simple. [Dwarven] and [Shire] don't need more weapons. Same with [Gandalf] (Beorning Axe for Men, Radagast's Staff and Wizard Staff for The Brown). That leaves only [Elven] and [Gondor].

Gondor has the Blade of Gondor (2 versions) for Boromir, and Ranger's Sword and Anduril FOTW for Aragorn. For Halbarad or anyone, there's Flaming Brand for strength and Narsil for vitality and wound prevention. A generic sword may help, but is not necessary. The options are:
- Gondorian Blade (damage),
- Gondorian Sword (less damage, more cycling)
- Sword of Gondor (damage to Bill Ferny, Freca and the Mouth of Sauron).

Elves don't need too much, the newcomers have a really good base strength. And they have the Elven Bow to give troubles. But we can add:
- Sword of the Fallen (too powerful IMO),
- Blade of Lindon Johnson (powerful with late sites),
- Elven Sword (cycling)

Those are the options worthy of evaluation in my opinion. 1 for each culture can help. But in both cases is not strictly necessary.

3)   There was early discussion about which Gandalf men should be added... Personally I dislike Erland and Dasron...
This point is somewhat solved, but touches another which isn't. [Gandalf] Men will need a pump, and the only pump for them in FOTR block is SotSF (with Gandy).

The power rise in the Shadow side will be astonishing, and those strength 5 or 6 guys (8 or 9 if fully equipped) will need good survival mechanisms. They'll be facing The Balrog, Saruman fully geared, the Witch King with other Nazzies, a Cave Troll, Moria Axes, perhaps Sauron in person. Those monsters vote for my point!

So we must include either Erland DC to recycle those SotSF (very powerful with a Beorning Axe) or a universal [Gandalf] pump like For A While Less Dark (weak), The Terror of His Coming (weak), The Sap is in the Bough (weak), The Flame of Anor (medium power), Guidance of the Istari (powerful, up to 8 strength if Anduin Confluence doesn't strike), Be Gone! (powerful but costly). Those events would help Radagast too, which hasn't any [Gandalf] card until Set 10 except Wizard Staff.

I think that Guidance of the Istari can be a good incentive to play Gandalf Men, which are otherwise plainly weak (even with Brand, Flaming Brand and Beorning Axe; Cantea eats them!). There's no burden-removal mechanics here (Jarnsmid BE, Watch and Wait), [Gandalf] tokens (Librarian, Last Stand), resistance triggered tricks (G for Grand) nor followers (Barliman, Strange Meeting), so their only tool for fighting must be pure strength. And Ally Hate can cripple a lot that strategy. Speak Friend And Enter and Elrond LoR + Master of Healing might try to protect those [Gandalf] Men allies from cards like Their Power is in Terror, Tower Assassin and Anduin Confluence, but there's nothing more. The Board is Set would help but isn't present.

I'd vote for Guidance if there's only 1 slot; Guidance + The Flame of Anor if there's 2. And Be Gone! is very interesting...

All in all, even Dasron can become interesting. He's base strength 6, and would bring a 4th [Gandalf] man companion in absense of Erland (they are somewhat disposable).


We want to listen to other persons' opinion. Dmaz, Euk, Sgtdraino, Ket, Not a Zombie, Bib, Cw0rk, Cthulhu... Everyone is welcome.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 01:52:44 PM by Durin's Heir »

September 17, 2015, 08:09:23 PM
Reply #48

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 854
  • #AlexJonesWasRight
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #48 on: September 17, 2015, 08:09:23 PM »
I've been thinking a bit about Barliman's skill. It can be powerful with a generic [Gandalf] pump, Gandalf and Hugin + Fireworks in a wicked Fireworks manipulation deck. Durin's Secret can help you run, so the natural pairing would be anything that stops your opponent.


About generic weapons... if Elves get some help, Elven Sword or Blade of Lindon can incentive players to ditch their Elven Bows and that's a good thing. But Sword of the Fallen gets fed by archery, so it isn't a good option.

[Gondor] Men will get cycling with Gondorian Sword, but at the expense of losing the permanent damage and having to ditch many cards to substitute it; that may be a good balance in theory. Gondorian Blade will render Ranger's Sword useless (they will do exactly the same, except that GB doesn't specify Aragorn). Sword of Gondor is the weakest of all, and you can still get damage with Dagger Strike or Still Sharp. There's Denethor's Sword too :lol:... Those are the options, as Knight's Spear uses threats and Ithilien Blade is too powerful in the first sites (when Gondor men are more vulnerable).

Cycling FP cards were added in Towers Block to add more fluidity to deck builds. In this new format, that may be a good thing in order to allow large and complicated decks to work well. So I like the options of Gondorian Sword and Elven Sword, though more discussion and playtesting can be necessary.

September 18, 2015, 02:00:57 AM
Reply #49

Dictionary

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Posts: 526
  • Duplicitous Deckbuilder
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #49 on: September 18, 2015, 02:00:57 AM »
I'm wary of adding more Gandalf pumps, as well as companions like Erland and Dasron because of the looping potential (As you just said) and Grimbeorn makes this worse. I feel like that sort of thing really belongs in Expanded, and ought to stay there. That said, Dasron needs tokens, which aren't really present (Strands of Elven Hair), we can allow Guidance of the Istari for the moment, and we can see whether playtesting makes [Gandalf] too powerful. I also feel like the cycling cards like Elven Sword etc. belong in the later formats, I don't like the idea of having them in Fellowship (Which already has Gwemegil and Gift of the Evenstar) for this purpose anyway, so I'd vote for Blade of Lindon and Sword of Gondor (Though we may not need [Gondor] or [Elven] weapons at all, as you pointed out.) On the other hand, if we want to discourage Elven Bow, we could add Naith Longbow as a card, since it would be the only generic strength bonus (Without swords) for people like Glorfindel, and there's a big difference between 9 and 10 strength.

Couple of other cards have come to my mind:
Eye of Barad Dur - Alternative strength pump for [Sauron] as they only have Enduring Evil otherwise, and that makes them a bit predictable. It's also a solid counter to Sting for the [Sauron] culture, and encourages corruption.

Hadafang: Elrond can use, but perhaps its ability is too strong, particularly if both it and gwemegil can co-exist (Unless Gwemegil is x-listed so that it can replace it)

Should Sam, SoH be x-listed, or at least r-listed? We want to encourage corruption, but he pretty much breaks it on his own. R-listing wouldn't hurt hobbits, but might make him less splashable and encourage people to use Green Dragon Inn over Prancing Pony. Alternatively, we could X-list him and replace with Needer of Vittles or Samwise the Brave (Otherwise unused cards).

I'm happy with Orc Cutthroat and Sauron, TLOTR :up:
Visit LOTR TCG wiki for strategy articles and extra card details, contributed by various community members. All set 1 cards finished.

September 18, 2015, 02:23:15 AM
Reply #50

Eukalyptus

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Bowman
  • Posts: 429
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #50 on: September 18, 2015, 02:23:15 AM »
SoH is only once in the deck anyhow, so R-listing him would affect nothing. Either X-list him or don't.

September 18, 2015, 05:28:10 AM
Reply #51

Dictionary

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Posts: 526
  • Duplicitous Deckbuilder
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #51 on: September 18, 2015, 05:28:10 AM »
I use more than one copy ;) Depends how much you want to bid. But I admit R-Listing wouldn't have great effect.
Visit LOTR TCG wiki for strategy articles and extra card details, contributed by various community members. All set 1 cards finished.

September 18, 2015, 10:26:43 AM
Reply #52

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 854
  • #AlexJonesWasRight
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #52 on: September 18, 2015, 10:26:43 AM »
I'm glad to see you Euk bringing your valuable opinion. Welcome, please keep contributing. You are right: either X-list or... nothing. I think nothing is better.

The potential of corruption Shadows will be marvelously increased: Gollum DaD and Ring of Asperity (Lost to the Goblinses, Twilight Nazzies, Worry), The Pale Blade Sword of Flame, Fell Beast for Twilight Nazzies, non-underground Balrogs for Must Do Without Hope, Set 16 Wraiths... even The Art of Gandalf (can stack Cruel Caradhras to play 3 or 4 at once while Saruman's Ambition makes them free). Frenzy can easily kill exhausted companions, and if you assign a goblin bearing a Goblin Spear you'll get 1 or 2 burdens (unique [Moria] Orcs will get Durin's Tower, plus the already present Dark Places).

I think we'll only have 3 main options to counter corruption: Sam SoH, Tom Bombadil and Tom Bombadil's Hat. Tom brings large troubles by himself, and might be R-listed. Tom Bombadil's Hat requires 2 Hobbit comps so many decks won't play it, and has other disadvantages like possession discard (Isen Smith or Beauty is Fading), Black Breath on Frodo/Bilbo or the simple fact of not being able to start it; might be R-listed too, to prevent packing 4 copies. So if we remove Sam SoH there will be only 2 options that are likely more troublesome than Sam himself.

(I know there are Narya, Gandalf's Pipe, Elf Song... but aren't so splashable, and corruption will be a universal threat).

Sam SoH has many counters: Hate, Frenzy, Saruman SotE, Helpless, Throw Yourself in Next Time, You Bring Great Evil. Bill Ferny if he's splashed. And as you say, R-listing a companion that can be played in either Site 1 or starting fellowship won't have almost any effect. But Dictionary's alternative versions of Sam are very interesting! Samwise the Brave seems really cool, if we X-list SoH.




Dasron will have tokens (Tom Bombadil's Hat and Strands) so he should be out. Erland is an alternative to adding a generic [Gandalf] pump, but if we add both they'll be overpowered. Guidance of the Istari is very powerful but has its frailness: Anduin Confluence, Tower Assassin and Their Power Is In Terror discard or kill your main force of [Gandalf] Men, leaving only your companions safe. As said before, I vote for Guidance. Even with a pump like The Flame of Anor they'll be the weakest subculture in skirmishes (they don't heal, remove burdens, have damage bonuses, discard minions nor conditions... they only fight and only Ghan is good in that), so the pump must be very solid to correct that.

And Gandalf has only 2 event pumps (Mysterious Wizard and SotSF), plus TMAYOD, I don't think a 3rd event will bring any imbalance. With [Gandalf] Men, only the very useless The Grey Wizard will be able to bring a 3rd Gandalf signet for a TMAYOD deck (with Frodo OBH and Radagast) while allowing enough companion room for Gandy Men.


It's not true that Sauron Orcs have only Enduring Evil as pump. They have Strength Born of Fear (Wow! [3] = +1 strength!) :lol:. But your idea is magnificent! I love the Eye of Barad-dur, and it's totally lore-consistent (Sauron vs Frodo at Amon Hen, with a little help of Gandalf). :up:


About the generic [Gondor] weapons, Sword of Gondor seems fine as doesn't replace the quality of Aragorn and Boromir's swords. About [Elven], Naith Longbow has my vote, good call my friend! That, only if we are adding [Gondor] and [Elven] generic weapons.

Hadafang is too powerful I think. To counter Elven condition discard in FOTR, you must get rid of allies and that's hard to achieve. Should we give them another option? I'd like to see Elrond wileding that saber, but the cons are mighty.

Nice review my fellows!
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 12:50:58 PM by Durin's Heir »

September 23, 2015, 08:43:53 AM
Reply #53

Dictionary

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Posts: 526
  • Duplicitous Deckbuilder
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #53 on: September 23, 2015, 08:43:53 AM »
List updated. Coming back to the point about Houses of Lamentation, wouldn't Riders in Black also make Ferny too dangerous? There's not even a limit on that card. And will we be testing with the Revised Towers Standard Gemp format? If so, should there be a policy on sites?
Visit LOTR TCG wiki for strategy articles and extra card details, contributed by various community members. All set 1 cards finished.

September 23, 2015, 08:49:07 AM
Reply #54

Eukalyptus

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Bowman
  • Posts: 429
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #54 on: September 23, 2015, 08:49:07 AM »
Please excuse that I didn't read through the whole thread, but please explain to me why this thread was started as an enhancement with flavor cards that fitted thematically with FotR now has stuff like Fell Beast (dmaz explained this one, but I think it too far fetched - or R-list it), Houses of Lamentation and The Pale Blade, Sword of Flame?

Eye of Barad-dur I like very much!
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 09:01:09 AM by Eukalyptus »

September 23, 2015, 09:12:39 AM
Reply #55

Dictionary

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Posts: 526
  • Duplicitous Deckbuilder
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #55 on: September 23, 2015, 09:12:39 AM »
We certainly could R-List it, that would be cool. I don't think Houses of Lamentation is actually in at the moment, but we were examining cards to help the Barrow Wights, who are thematic, but are pretty weak. And The Pale Blade's picture is fine, I don't know why Decipher subtitled it Sword of Flame, if they wanted that they should've used the picture of the sword that you see in The Witch King, Dark Lord.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 09:17:56 AM by Dictionary »
Visit LOTR TCG wiki for strategy articles and extra card details, contributed by various community members. All set 1 cards finished.

September 23, 2015, 09:32:57 AM
Reply #56

Eukalyptus

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Bowman
  • Posts: 429
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #56 on: September 23, 2015, 09:32:57 AM »
I thought you were going for lore, not pictures?

September 24, 2015, 02:57:02 AM
Reply #57

Dictionary

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Posts: 526
  • Duplicitous Deckbuilder
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #57 on: September 24, 2015, 02:57:02 AM »
You say that like they're unrelated, but I think there's a correlation between the two. I would not like to add Boromir, HoO simply because Boromir himself was present (And had already won that battle) because the image is very reminiscent of The Two Towers, and this is Enhanced Fellowship Block. You'll also notice that many of the cards being added use imagery from the first film (Disarmed, Guardian, every Balrog, Barliman, tentacles), or concepts that should/could have been in the first film (Tom Bombadil, Ugluk, Saruman's Staff, possibly Mouth of Sauron etc.). My point with The Pale Blade was that if it had been in a picture of the ROTK Witch King it would have been harder to justify, since he didn't look like that in Fellowship of the Ring. Besides, The Pale Blade was present in The Fellowship of the Ring lorewise, and the Witch King always used the same sword, so why do you say it's unthematic?
Visit LOTR TCG wiki for strategy articles and extra card details, contributed by various community members. All set 1 cards finished.

September 24, 2015, 03:24:14 AM
Reply #58

Eukalyptus

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Bowman
  • Posts: 429
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #58 on: September 24, 2015, 03:24:14 AM »
With this logic you'd have to include every single card with a picture taken from FotR footage.

I think this has gone out way of hand with what dmaz intended to do.

June 11, 2016, 02:29:38 AM
Reply #59

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 854
  • #AlexJonesWasRight
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #59 on: June 11, 2016, 02:29:38 AM »
Long since my last post here...

I don't think exactly like Euk, but he makes a good point that the additions mustn't be excessive.

- Sword of Flame: Now, about the flames in the Witchie's sword, Gandalf fought the 9 riders by himself at Amon Sûl and due to the battle there was fire not seen in centuries. When Aragorn leads the hobbits it's said "...the grass was scorched and shrivelled, as if flames had swept the hill-top." Later at the Council, Gandalf says "such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old."

Clearly Gandalf was a maker of flames, but perhaps he wasn't the only one. Can be speculated that the Witch King's sorcery contributed too; the RotK book and film would support that possibility.

- Fell Beast: A winged mount alternative is The Witch King's Beast. It's unique, costs 2 twilight and doesn't cycle, so keeps the mechanics of the FOTR Nazgûls. I prefer the set 6 Fell Beast, as it helps Twilight Nazzies a lot and the twilight can be a problem, but to reduce the number of Beasts on the board there's this option.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 02:35:57 AM by Durin's Heir »

January 19, 2019, 06:12:02 AM
Reply #60

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 854
  • #AlexJonesWasRight
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #60 on: January 19, 2019, 06:12:02 AM »
I'm trying to resurrect this old thread...

The idea is to have a new format in Gemp to enhance the FOTR block card pool by adding things from further sets, in order to expand the gameplay AND be loyal to Tolkien's story and universe. We (mainly dmaz, Dictionary and I) worked it years ago, and got to a good but unfinished product. In theory at least...

All can be summarized this way:

- Valid Sets 1-3 (duh) + 9 (Reflections), 14 (Expanded Middle-Earth) & 16 (Wraith Collection).
- Sets 9 and 14 come with things from TTT and RotK films (and characters long-dead), so those are cut off.*
- Alternative RBs are removed too (save Bilbo, who was willing to carry it).
- Some relevant things from the FOTR timeframe from other sets are included: Anduril FOTW, Aragorn Strider, Sword of Boromir, Saruman's Staff, the Mouth of Sauron (is sent to Dale and Erebor)...
- As Sets 9 and 14 are almost all-FP (with that ugly power creep), some additions are done to diversify/reinforce Shadow strategies (but only things on the FOTR timeframe): 2 non-underground Balrogs, ESF for Watcher/tentacles (and more tentacles), Throne of Isengard, Fell Beast (The Witch King uses one), the muscular [Sauron] and [Isengard] trackers...
- Given that Shadow rise, some weak FP (sub)cultures get help to be viable: companion Thrarin/Grimir and Thorin III for Dwarves (since no Durin III!), a traveling Elrond EL for fighting Elves (no Cirdan, Gil-galad...), Beorning Axe and Ghan-buri-Ghan for [Gandalf] Men...

* or left as useless options outside their natural format, to not bulk the X-list: Freca, The Red Arrow, Ent Draught.

At the top of the previous page there's the current list of additions, exclusions and restrictions. Which isnt' fixed, but should change and evolve.


That way, we'd end up with an "Enhanced FOTR block" format (so to name it) where Tom Bombadil can save the four Hobbits from the ambush of Barrow Wights; or The Mouth of Sauron and some Orkish troops can fight kings Dain Ironfoot and Brand; or Mr. Butterbur can leave his dear inn and follow Strider to bodyguard the Hobbits to Rivendell, and get the counsel and help of Elrond and his sons. Or Gandalf returning from death in the nick of time to save Frodo from the Lidless Eye at Amon Hen. Or Sauron himself may appear and challenge the remains of The White Council... assisted by his now-ally Saruman.


Nice, isn't? Well, it's all a nice theory by now... we need to polish it more. Would you lend us your aid?

January 19, 2019, 08:23:50 AM
Reply #61

Dictionary

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Posts: 526
  • Duplicitous Deckbuilder
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #61 on: January 19, 2019, 08:23:50 AM »
It's been a while ;)

As far as tidying up the lists is concerned, maybe Horror of Harad; Furious Hillman; Swarming Hillman; Half-Troll of Far Harad need not be X-listed, as they have little utility anyway.

Ring of Terror probably can be skipped in the Additional Valid list. It's the strongest [Wraith] ring and it makes News of Mordor or Ring of Ire much less useful.

I know I pushed for Disarmed + Guardian a while ago, but it does feel awkward having them added but R-listed. Any further thoughts on these cards?

Does [Shire] perhaps need more support? It's got one bonus card and 4 Reflections cards so far. But Goldberry is splashable.
Visit LOTR TCG wiki for strategy articles and extra card details, contributed by various community members. All set 1 cards finished.

January 19, 2019, 08:48:56 AM
Reply #62

Phallen Cassidy

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Bowman
  • Posts: 459
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #62 on: January 19, 2019, 08:48:56 AM »
What is your goal in "tidying up the lists"? If it is to make things clear for players building a deck, just let the deck builder do its job and automatically include/exclude the cards that are included/excluded. If it is to make the list more readable, that's a noble endeavor but I wonder if it's really worth the trouble. Why not simply link people to a topic you create with the full lists? The Fellowship Poorman's format, for example, currently has the longest X-list of any format (every Fellowship block Rare). I'm looking into simplifying that into saying something like "All rares," but even as it stands the rules are not unclear.

I haven't looked through all the posts yet so I can't offer opinions on the format itself, but I would encourage you to truly make the format what you want without worrying about technicalities. Make the X-, R-, and Additional Valid lists as long as you please. Many players won't even notice them.

January 19, 2019, 10:10:17 AM
Reply #63

Durin's Heir

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Ranger
  • Posts: 854
  • #AlexJonesWasRight
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #63 on: January 19, 2019, 10:10:17 AM »
It's been a while ;)
Feels like it was yesterday!

As far as tidying up the lists is concerned, maybe Horror of Harad; Furious Hillman; Swarming Hillman; Half-Troll of Far Harad need not be X-listed, as they have little utility anyway.
I was thinking the same. Horror of Harad is a small unique Uruk at best, but with no pumps or KoI's support. Half-Troll of Far Harad is even milder. The Hillmen are trickier, but the Shadow deck must be built around them to be effective (Ferny, The Mouth), and their effect is ludicrous as the goal of an entire deck. So agree fully with you. :up:

Ring of Terror probably can be skipped in the Additional Valid list. It's the strongest [Wraith] ring and it makes News of Mordor or Ring of Ire much less useful.
True. Besides, with the new burden potential (Must Do Without Hope outside undergrounds, Gollum DaD + Fell Beast for twilight nazzies, Sword of Flame) they can use Dark Whispers or Nazgul Sword for damage bonuses.

I know I pushed for Disarmed + Guardian a while ago, but it does feel awkward having them added but R-listed. Any further thoughts on these cards?
Aragorn already has ways to fight more than 1 minion in the old-fashioned way (Aragorn ROTN, VMoTW), so he doesn't really need Guardian. Boromir has Sword of Gondor to fight multiple times, or the subtitle-less Blade of Gondor + Elendil's Valor to kill a Scavenger and then finish the other guy (Gorn can now do the same with Knife of the Galadhrim). Besides defender bonuses, they have access to OWMWF, Horn of Boromir and now Halbarad.

Disarmed always had me uneasy. I don't want [Wraith] Rings, the Balrog's Sword or Saruman's Staff being ditched so easily, even if is only once per game.


Does [Shire] perhaps need more support? It's got one bonus card and 4 Reflections cards so far. But Goldberry is splashable.
This issue is interesting. You're right, those 5 4 cards (Hat, Tom Bomb, Goldberry, Bilbo companion and Everyone Knows) are strong but much less poweful than the [Gondor], [Elven], [Dwarven] or [Gandalf] ones. All those cultures get new strong skirmishers (and [Gandalf] can even resurrect them if needed). Double-moving is thus much easier for those cultures.

[Shire] is great at cancelling skirmishes, healing and choking, but given the lack of consistent strength and damage, they cannot double move safely. Boromir SoD + Narsil + Saga is a good addition, but doesn't solve that problem.. besides, we're giving additions that make full-Elves, full-Dwarves and full-Men viable... why Hobbits should be forced to carry a Man or Elf to survive?

Narrow Escape might be the solution. Powerful, but not splashable. After skirmish cancelling, CWW, Mithril Coat and Seek and Hide reduce the skirmish/archery harm, Narrow Escape would do what they cannot with the FOTR block card pool.


That'd remove 4 from the X-list, 2 from the R-list, and 2 in total (after adding Narrow Escape) from the Additional Valid list. 10 things less to memorize. Anything else?

I think Gimli OG isn't really necessary. I know, I pushed for it, but this is the sitepath where Book of Mazarbul actually works, and before that they can use Delving (and heal with Dwarven Heart without drawback, given Ironfoot). In such a perilous environment with dmg+2 Trolls (Hammer), Balrogs and Wizards (Staff, Of Many Colours, Throne; that's actually dmg+3!), I'd much rather have them wear a Belt of Erebor, so they can survive loses like Aragorn and Boromir often do via Armor (and Ghan and Halbarad will be doing).



I haven't looked through all the posts yet so I can't offer opinions on the format itself, but I would encourage you to truly make the format what you want without worrying about technicalities. Make the X-, R-, and Additional Valid lists as long as you please. Many players won't even notice them.
That's a good point. But since Dictionary mentioned cards that aren't really adding anything that was needed or wasn't already present, I feel both your point and Dictionary's can be compatible.

I wanted to add at least 1 card to the list: The Flame of Anor for [Gandalf] Men. So the idea is to trim only what's superfluous of being specified in those lists (mild, redundant or unnecessary), but I believe that card is not. [Gandalf] Men have low strength, and we're not including Erland, Dasron or Grimbeorn for being too powerful. So they need a little help.


The Fellowship Poorman's format, for example, currently has the longest X-list of any format (every Fellowship block Rare). I'm looking into simplifying that into saying something like "All rares," but even as it stands the rules are not unclear.
That's different, 'cause 'rare' is easy to exclude as a group. Including and excluding things that cannot be grouped by keywords, rareness, culture, etc., requires players to get accustomed to the format... the shorter the list, the easier to learn.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 05:10:46 PM by Durin's Heir »

January 20, 2019, 04:32:44 AM
Reply #64

Dictionary

  • ****
  • Information Offline
  • Marksman
  • Posts: 526
  • Duplicitous Deckbuilder
Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #64 on: January 20, 2019, 04:32:44 AM »
I've made a separate thread for the list, it's easier to update and reference that way: http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,11468.msg95041/topicseen.html#msg95041

Let me know how it looks. Taking note of what we just said about readability, I've split it into further categories. I'm hoping I've got everything mentioned thus far, so please point out any errors.

There's a list of possibilities at the bottom to make it easier to see what's currently being discussed, especially if you haven't read the whole thread. Also helps me not to forget things ;)

Is The Flame of Anor replacing the previously discussed GotI proposal?
Visit LOTR TCG wiki for strategy articles and extra card details, contributed by various community members. All set 1 cards finished.