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July 23, 2015, 02:45:29 PM
Reply #30

Dictionary

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Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2015, 02:45:29 PM »
I just read this entire discussion in one go, and I'm not sure I took it all in, so forgive me if I've got the wrong idea.

Is the idea to take Fellowship Block and add a bunch of specific cards from later on that are lore appropriate without adding too much of the complexity that came with the later sets?

For pumping Saruman, Men Will Fall is a valid event. You could justify it by saying it's Saruman scheming away in his tower about his plans (As you'd use it for him only, and not for [Isengard] Men. Although you said you were wary of Ages End, I think Aragorn, WtG and Boromir, DG are both thematic choices in terms of picture and ability (Although Aragorn may be overpowered?). Boromir's ability also is similar to BoC, but you'd want to have a setup with perhaps Horticulturalist and Farmer Maggot, CoR to keep the hobbits healthy. Would it be worth bringing in either of the Ugluks (Perhaps Two Towers one with some other trackers) as Ugluk was the main uruk in the books and there was no Lurtz (I think Ugluk first appears in Two Towers book, but then the whole thing with Boromir dying was in Two Towers originally, right?) Ugluk gets extra synergy with Tol Brandir, perhaps too much? It'd make for an interesting final foe at site 9.
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July 24, 2015, 01:25:07 PM
Reply #31

Durin's Heir

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Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2015, 01:25:07 PM »
I'm glad to see you offering your point of view. We need as much good ideas as we can muster. Welcome to the talk, Dictionary!

Is the idea to take Fellowship Block and add a bunch of specific cards from later on that are lore appropriate without adding too much of the complexity that came with the later sets?
That's right. Lore is our goal. And we want to avoid adding game dynamics that came after the FOTR block (followers, initiative, culture tokens, site control, resistance of non-RB comps, threats, hunter...). There are some exceptions we can include, if we have no other options and don't offend too much those original dynamics like Saruman Of Many Colours (lurker) and Barrow Wights of Set 14 (enduring).

But we don't want to turn this into an "Expanded cards with FOTR sites" format, including each and every possible card with a picture or text according to the story of the FOTR book. The additions must be well-founded, and not too many if possible, to only "Enhance the FOTR block" as the title states and not to replace it.

Would it be worth bringing in either of the Ugluks... as Ugluk was the main uruk in the books and there was no Lurtz (I think Ugluk first appears in Two Towers book, but then the whole thing with Boromir dying was in Two Towers originally, right?)
Adding Ugluk may be a good addition, sounds good. You are right: in the FOTR book he's unnamed, but is the leader of those fought by Boromir when he blows the Horn. In the case of adding him, must be only Servant of Saruman as Ugly Fellow is a Hunter, and has an additional use of that keyword in his text.

Ugluk gets extra synergy with Tol Brandir, perhaps too much? It'd make for an interesting final foe at site 9.
At Tol Brandir, playing Ugluk SoS and 2 other Uruk trackers would cost a good bunch of twilight for a 9 strength, fierce uruk leader with fragile additions, and 2 of his henchmen. Not overpowered, at all: 10 twilight for he and 2x Uruk Scout (the only [Isengard] tracker in FOTR), and Fearing the Worst can make things even costlier. Perhaps we might go further and add 1 or 2 other [Isengard] trackers of Set 4, to add more diversification and viability.

Anyway, IMO they shouldn't come with [Isengard] tracker tricks of Set 4. Most of those don't fit with the FOTR book lore (they represent Uruks running with Merry + Pippin while the Three Amigos chase them).

For pumping Saruman, Men Will Fall is a valid event. You could justify it by saying it's Saruman scheming away in his tower about his plans (As you'd use it for him only, and not for [Isengard] Men.
Hmmm, the whole point of pumps for Saruman was merely to compare him to a strength 17 or 20, vit 9 Tom Bombadil, fighting and pumped due to the Horn of Boromir. We want to include the Throne of Isengard and Saruman's Staff, so he won't need pumps really (strength 13, dmg+2 or +3, fierce). And Men Will Fall doesn't pump Saruman, it reduces the strength to a companion (except Frodo, Sam and Bilbo), just needs to spot Saruman. Can be a good idea. :up:

In regards of Tom Bombadil, we must find a proper way to reduce his power, or exclude him (which is not the idea). R-listing him and/or the Horn can help (that is, max 1 copy per deck). Not allowing RB skirmishes to be cancelled is another option. We want to include Ranks Without Number as a counter to fighting allies, as [Isengard] is the only culture without access to strong counters to Boromir + Horn.

Although you said you were wary of Ages End, I think Aragorn, WtG and Boromir, DG are both thematic choices in terms of picture and ability (Although Aragorn may be overpowered?). Boromir's ability also is similar to BoC, but you'd want to have a setup with perhaps Horticulturalist and Farmer Maggot, CoR to keep the hobbits healthy.

I like Boromir, Destined Guide due to the resemblance to Boromir BoC's ability but not being an Alternative RB. He needs another companion exerting, but is a ranger and can start with both Mary and Poppins; seems a good balance. I personally love that skill of BoC / DG, it'd be a pity to not include it.

The other "fellowship" companions os Set 19... Merry removes cards from the game, Frodo refers to threats, Legolas adds threats; those are outsider mechanics. Gandalf is jus too powerful to be included. Aragorn may be a bit too powerful (though weak to grind and archery), Pippin lacks a limit (but is weak to Saruman's Power); those need to be studied. I like Boromir, Gimli and Sam, seem powerful but not excessively, and help to enrich and diversify the strategies. That's only my opinion of course.


We aren't sure about adding Alternative RBs. What do you think? If we aim for lore, Boromir, Galadriel, Smeagol and Gimli shouldn't be the RB, while Isildur shouldn't even be present (died some 3088 years before, that should mean something). But Bilbo... Bilbo offered himself to take the Ring to Mordor, so I vote for including Bilbo BotB as the sole possible ARB card, and allowing ARBs to be used. What do you guys think?

Thanks for helping us in this creative task. Welcome again!
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 12:53:38 PM by Durin's Heir »
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July 24, 2015, 05:39:20 PM
Reply #32

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Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2015, 05:39:20 PM »
Uruk Runner and Uruk Chaser should both fit in, the latter is particularly good because he's a bit beefier than the existing trackers. Their names also don't sound too strange for Fellowship Block. If we then had Ugluk's sword, that ought to tie it up nicely.

On the subject of [Isengard], I would highly recommend the TT Broad-Bladed Sword; it is far superior to the original, which is pretty much never used. I know it's not really helpful lore-wise (But nor is it bad) I just think with all the Fellowship support uruks could do with a decent hand weapon.

I'm undecided about the Horn. I don't think encouraging spamming Such A Little Thing is very healthy for the format, as it breaks all the other Boromir strategies that don't use the Horn, which could be a little NPE. Going off that, I'd probably either R-List Horn or even X-List it, as people can still pack 4 One Whom Men Would Follow for a fighting Tom Bombadill. Alternatively, we could replace Defender of Minas Tirith with Destined Guide, as the former's regeneration is a large part of the problem. Ranks without Number does provide a strong horn counter though (Could be used with KoI) so maybe it'll be alright. With respect to Tom Bombadil's text, I don't think the cancelling skirmishes is a major problem, since the cost is exponential, and one use at a later site will cripple him, as there isn't that much healing for him.

Alternate Ring-Bearers probably don't fit in here in my opinion. Bilbo is a bit of an exception, but even he was old and frail, and didn't want to part with the ring. Also not sure what practical benefit a Bilbo RB brings, other than being able to use all the "Spot Bilbo" cards from the beginning. I liked the Alternate RBs from a "What if..." point of a view, so I think they fit well in Expanded and maybe Movie, but less certain about it for this format.

I particularly liked the Anduril, FotW idea, seeing as he had that in the book anyway. I would probably only allow that one though, as it's incredibly powerful, but at least has the drawback of preventing the use of other weapons.

What's your opinion on cards with some useful text, and other irrelevant text? For example, Urgency fits in nicely with other weather, and might finally make Uruk Messenger useful, since it remains in play. But of course there are no ents.

Some other ideas:
* Whip of Many Thongs, Weapon of Flame and Shadow would protect the Balrog against Stealth and make Fierce, which would help a lot – Again, perhaps too strong?
* Lurtz's Bow can be played on a [Isengard] uruk despite being [Uruk], so that could add some flavour. Being able to give extra vitality to uruks such as Uruk Guard could be overpowered though. You'd have to ignore second part of text too.
* Gimli, OG might be a bit too powerful, could be drawing 3-4 cards each turn. What about Dwarven Delegate, 0P62? He's pretty much useless anywhere else, but some might prefer a passive bonus to Gimli, SoG's risk-reward ability.
* What about Durin's Tower? Would work only as a pump, but is useful for Balrog, Troll and Watcher. Also it's one of few forbidden Moria cards remaining.
* Lost in the Woods would be interesting to use in Fellowship, due to the fixed site path, but it might still be unbalanced, and I'm not even sure why Nazgul got all those bonuses from forests later on. (Do they like forests?)

Thanks for the welcome! I hope we can make something come of this format :)
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July 28, 2015, 07:24:26 PM
Reply #33

Durin's Heir

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Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2015, 07:24:26 PM »
Thanks for the welcome! I hope we can make something come of this format :)
So I hope. But I must thank you instead, for collaborating with this project and keeping the ball rolling. :up: ;)


Those Uruk trackers look good for a beatdown, but not for a swarm (which is the main potential of Tol Brandir). For a swarm, we have only Uruk Foot Soldier and Uruk Plains Runner (there's also Uruk Pursuer and Uruk Seeker, but those are pretty weak in this format). Foot Soldier and Plains Runner are very easy to kill, but that can be countered by KoI and Broad Bladed Sword. All in all, I'd add 1 and 1: Uruk Plains Runner for a swarming Shadow, and Uruk Runner or Chaser for a beatdown. Those are fierce by themselves, so Worry gets aided by including them.

About Ugluk's Sword, that's a great card but has the problem of not being consistent with the lore of the FOTR book (or movie). The Broad-Bladed Sword might bring new game mechanics, allowing a non-fighting Saruman SotE to cause big troubles without worrying about archery. That can be a good addition, and doesn't depart too much from the lore. Even Black Shapes Crawling can be another good addition, as KoI can prevent the wounds and [Isengard] weapons might get more importance.

Any version of Boromir will get a lot of healing here (Halbarad, Elrond HtGG, KiE, Aragorn's Pipe; that's at least 2 wounds per turn), so banning DoMT won't solve the issue of the Horn. As posted before, I think that R-listing the Horn can be the best option, as OWMWF can act as a substitute (while you still don't draw it), but the Horn of Boromir plays an important part of the story, so Dmaz and I didn't want to remove it. I'd vote for keeping DoMT and adding Destined Guide.

The problem with Tom Bombadil cancelling skirmishes, is that in FOTR block [Shire] events can only cancel skirmishes until site 5, after that only against Nazgul (OEG) and in fierce skirmishes (Bolger) you can cancel, and at a high cost. Bombadil kicks that site 5 to 8. So I believe that RB skirmishes shouldn't be cancellable. You'd still be able to cancel skirmishes of other hobbits, so that part of both gameplay and story won't be removed, but merely balanced.


For the A-RB, I think the same as you my fellow. I know Bilbo didn't want to carry the Ring (though he offered to do so), but that can be portrayed by his lower resistance and the moving penalty. Besides those disadvantages, there are HUGE benefits of having Bilbo as RB: CWW makes him unkillable by non-archery wounds, RBoW can provide plenty of drawing, PEWI can play a specific Hobbit from draw deck, Stone Trolls... and Pippin FtF makes those tales invulnerable to Saruman's Power.


- Anduril FOTW will negate both Flaming Brand and the overpowered Aragorn's Bow, while adding new mechanics like playing sites 3 & 6. RotN can take advantage of that +1 vitality. And choke Frodo + Aragorn decks will take that vitality bonus pretty well, using a Coat of Mail instead of an Armor.

- Urgency + No Ordinary Storm = condition protection :up:. And Urgency can also help minions that have no pumps or very few, like Saruman or The Balrog. I like the idea.

- Lurtz's Bow is the only [Uruk] card I know that can be played with [Isengard] Uruks, and that vitality addition can be useful in many combos. I we add it, you might still be able to use that Archery skill, by discarding 2 other copies of Lurtz's Bow (very unlikely). :up:

- Durin's Tower can help other unique [Moria] minions, like Troll's Keyward (bearing a Moria Axe!), Ancient Chieftain, Guard Commander (frequent victim of FP tanks), Archer Commander (ditto)... I like it. As a side note, the Watcher in the Water is not a real threat in absense of Evil-Smelling Fens. Should we add it?

- Lost in the Woods can pump Bill Ferny. And no, they don't like forests :lol:, they just pursued and ambushed hobbits at forests. I don't think it fits well with the lore and the FOTR format mechanics. But may pump Barrow Wights too, which is something to consider. There are only 3 cards in FOTR block that can work together with Set 16 Wraiths: Gates of the Dead City, Otsea LoM and Morgul Skulker. And Ferny, of course. But the lack of tricks for Barrow Wights can make them unpopular and even weak, so adding 1 or 2 lore-consistent cards for any [Wraith] minion will be very important for them.

I don't like LitW here. Urgency can help, but still is not enough. Between Nazgul and Prey is their main weapon in Expanded. Dark Swooping Shadows can be an awesome card for this goal (and would be useful only for Wraiths, not for Nazgul). Houses of Lamentation can be good too. Nazgul Scimitar? Flung Into the Fray? In Twilight perhaps, but it's too powerful. I'd vote for Dark Swooping Shadows and Houses of Lamentation. Not exactly lore-consistent, but don't depart too much from the story.

- Gimli OG won't be drawing more cards than Book of Mazarbul, or Elrond LoR + Ottar (or + Celeborn). But can turn Dwarven Armor into a much more viable card. Gimli would be drawing cards before the Book of Mazarbul triggers and that can be very helpful to assemble much faster, but after that won't help much more.

- The card I cannot like in this format is Whip of Many Thongs, WoFaS, because it will kill event based FP decks (SotSF, Flurry of Blows/Axe Strike, Elladan and Elrohir...). Given the power rise in this format, pumps and other events will be much necessary most of the times. At underground sites The Balrog, TToKD won't be killed and will be unable to use the other WoMT's skill, I think it's a good balance and don't like the idea of disturbing it.

A last thing: we might need to keep the account of the "Additional Valid list" cards, at the end we might be adding too many cards and can be unnecesarily bloated.

I'm waiting to see what do other guys think about Dictionary's ideas. Dmaz, Sgtdraino, Bib... Everyone is welcome!
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 12:54:01 PM by Durin's Heir »
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July 30, 2015, 05:26:34 AM
Reply #34

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Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2015, 05:26:34 AM »
I agree with you about the uruks, it'd be interesting to see Black Shapes Crawling see play, I've never used it. I agree about R-Listing the horn as well, that seems fair.

I'm still uncertain about making RB's skirmishes uncancellable. A lot of Fellowships are small in Fellowship Block, and it usually doesn't hurt to pack some stealth for these just to provide some Frodo (Or Bilbo, in this case) insurance. These Fellowships won't necessarily be using any other hobbits, so they're a bit stuck from sites 1 - 5 if RB skirmishes can't be cancelled (Noble Intentions maybe ;) ). Makes the Balrog more dangerous for non-hobbit freeps too, but I don't see that as a major problem.

What are we aiming for the X-List to look like? I assume from the KoI discussion that it's going to have as few cards as possible. Another point that might be worth considering is X-Listing Sam, SoH, as he single-handedly makes Corruption a whole lot harder in Fellowship, and he'll make life harder for [Wraith] Wraiths as well. Being a companion, the R-List wouldn't hurt him much, although seeing as he is splashed in some decks it might help a little. Thoughts on this?

Evil-Smelling Fens seems a must for me, it's making an otherwise unused strategy viable, and it's harmless in the absence of Gollum (Or is Gollum present?). I know you've already discussed this, but just to put my own opinion forward, I would add the Ages End tentacles, but not the Ages End Watcher, as I think he warps the playing field too much. That would make Tentacles pretty much a fully viable strategy, and force people to use Keeper of Westgate, which would make it stand apart from Expanded Tentacles Decks. If condition discard hurts Evil Smelling Fens too much and Gollum is not present, then we could chuck in Deceit as a shield for it.

The [Wraith] Wraiths are of course a conundrum, as many of the cards that benefit them are extremely unthematic (Morgul Scimitar ;D) They'd get extra synergy from Ettenmoors though, and they never roam, so they have their own advantages, perhaps just as a sub-set of a Nazgul Deck.

I agree about that Additional Valid list, I'm just throwing ideas out there at the moment, but the list could get very messy. At least if it were organised by culture it would probably be readable, but if it were being read on Gemp, it might look a bit random to the new player.
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August 10, 2015, 05:48:07 AM
Reply #35

Dictionary

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Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2015, 05:48:07 AM »
Just had another thought, could we add Disarmed? It fits in thematically, and is kinda cool, but there's little incentive to use it in the set it came out in. The idea of transference itself isn't new, since Nazgul use it, even if the concept of Freeps doing it was not a thing back in Fellowship Block.

EDIT: And another thought - Final Triumph is another [Uruk] card that affects [Isengard], so we could add that to synergise with Lurtz's bow and to spice things up a lot too :)
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 04:20:23 AM by Dictionary »
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August 25, 2015, 08:32:59 PM
Reply #36

Durin's Heir

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Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2015, 08:32:59 PM »
Disarmed... I always thought that card was overpowered for its purpose. It's transferred at maneuver but should be at skirmish, doesn't need an exertion, discards each Shadow card on bearer including non-weapon artifacts like Ring of Ire or Saruman's Staff (or weapon artifacts like The Balrog's Sword!). I mean, what were they thinking? It'd have meta usefulness here, but it's OP for that purpose.

Instead of Disarmed, what about Sword of Boromir and Guardian? Guardian can be a bit excessive as it can make Aragorn fight too much (I think no one wants that), and uses the Toil keyword. But Sword of Boromir depicts him extraordinarily well as a true hero, allowing him to fight multiple times by replacing Mary-poppins only, and would give an use to packing more copies of Shield of Boromir, Armor, Coat of Mail and Athelas. And makes a nice combo with Destined Guide.

Final Triumph can be a bit too much. Uruks are all damage +1, and Saruman's Power controls conditions like the Saga of Elendil, Endurance of Dwarves or the Tale of Gil-Galad... too powerful.


What about The Art of Gandalf? There is a good bunch of [Gandalf] spells in FOTR block, and that card can even stack [Isengard] spells (which may be useful if you have more copies than you need at the moment). That would give new dynamics to Gandalf-centered decks, and even to FotS Trust Me decks which start Gandy and Gandalf's Cart.


Will be posting soon about the other points you make. I'm sorry for answering with such delay :(.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 12:52:15 PM by Durin's Heir »
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August 25, 2015, 10:42:36 PM
Reply #37

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Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2015, 10:42:36 PM »
I just read this whole discussion, and think that it's a marvelous idea!
I will keep an eye on this thread, and add my input when I feel as if it is of value.

For now, I will say that I like the idea of including the Sword of Boromir. Using it to discard the Shield of Boromir would add a little bit of flavor I think, as he would be using his shield to defend Merry or Pippin!

Keep at this! :up:
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 10:45:17 PM by TheSangheiliGeek »

August 26, 2015, 04:06:42 AM
Reply #38

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Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2015, 04:06:42 AM »
@Durin's Heir: It's interesting to get another perspective on that, I've always thought Disarmed was a pretty useless card. 2 twilight for a strength -1 debuff. Its only real advantage is discarding the stuff of the bearer, and in my experience that's only really horrible for warg-riders. In fellowship block, I rarely see Nazgul, Sauron Orcs or Uruks with any possessions at all (And Goblin Scimitars have already done the damage, plus there's Plundered Armories), and many people don't even use the Balrog, although I agree discarding his stuff - or Saruman's Staff for that matter, is pretty nasty. Black Traitor would solve that problem though, but perhaps we have too many Sarumans already. It would probably hurt Broad-Bladed Sword, but as you said there's Saruman's Power.

I don't suppose we can add stuff and then immediately R-List? I would definitely do that for Guardian if that were the case. Sword of Boromir I like though, although it'd be a pain with Merry, FtS. [Gondor] card is a tad vague too, means you could discard The Saga of Elendil or No Stranger to the Shadows, but nevermind. At least it'd give incentive to use Boromir's Cloak, then you could discard if unneeded.

Final Triumph I'm also uncertain about, it costs 4 twilight, which is the same as a minion, and many uruks in Fellowship Block have only 2 vitality, combine that with archery and your uruks are hardly going to dominate the battlefield with it. The healthiest uruk is Troop of Uruk-hai, and even that can't beat Gandalf. Saruman's Power is good, but it's also an exertion and only really hurts Endurance of Dwarves in my opinion, as it's the only non-unique vitality condition. The worst that could happen is a 2 vitality companion overwhelmed by a Troop (Or Lurtz with Bow etc.) but if they only have 2 vitality, then more often than not they'd be killed anyway! I think the card would probably be most useful against a Str 14 Aragorn (and Elladan and Elrohir I suppose), it gives uruks a way to beat him, and forces the opponent to not focus purely on strength.

The Art of Gandalf sounds good :up: Not the sort of card I like using, but I can't see it being that OP. Unless someone stacks 4 SotSF on it and withdraws them at site 9...

Don't worry about the delay, I'm just glad we can keep the thread active ;)

@TheSangheliGeek: Welcome! It's good to see another individual following this thread. Hopefully dmaz will add his opinion soon as well, I'd love to see this format get implemented.
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September 10, 2015, 05:32:07 PM
Reply #39

Durin's Heir

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Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2015, 05:32:07 PM »
- Non-cancellable RB skirmishes: I don't think any FP should have big problems with this (except Solo Frodo). The new starting fellowships will be huge and won't need to cancel skirmishes so bad. Non-hobbit fellowships will have Elladan & Elrohir, Glorfindel, Dain Ironfoot & strength 7 dwarves, Halbarad, perhaps we include Strider and/or Grimbeorn... while hobbit fellowships will be able to cancel skirmishes with the other guys. Noble Intentions will help in one case, Halfling Deftness in the other. Or Boromir SoD... + Narsil + Saga. There will be a great power increase in the Shadow side but that's to counter the power increase of the FP, so allowing to play a Hobbit Stealth to save Aragorn or Elrond from facing a full-powered Witch King or Host of Moria seems a bit misaimed to me.

Besides, Tom Bombadil brings the problem of making hobbit skirmishes too easy to cancel, now until site 8. That's good for hobbit fellowships, but other cultures should rely on what they will do best: fighting.

- Evil-Smelling Fens: Gollum DaD is actually present. Dark as Darkness represents Gollum's part at Moria and the Anduin River very well, and also will help a lot some Shadows like Lost to the Goblins, Twilight Nazgul, archery, Worry and Sauron grind. But adding Evil-Smelling Fens might not cause trouble anyway, because: 1) Gollum won't have other tricks to replay him/play him sooner (Web, Captured, We Must Have It), or to make him strong and perilous; 2) you won't use both DaD's skill and the Fens at the same time (you'd need to have 5 vitality); and 3) 6 or 8 card slots plus [3] each time to replay often a given key minion like Saruman, the Cave Troll or Isengard Smith isn't really overpowered in my opinion. In that case, Deceit can be really useful as the tentacles suffer a lot from FP condition control, moreover at maneuver (Secret Sentinels is ubicuous).

I agree with the Set 19 tentacles in absense of the Set 19 Watcher. Good call!

- Barrow Wights: Agree, those additions would be too unthematic. I think Riders In Black would work well as a pump for Wraiths, and wouldn't be unconsistent at all. And they get synergy with Ettenmoors as you say, besides FP archery makes them stronger.

- Disarmed: Costs 2 but rangers can counter that with ease, and doesn't clog your hand. We want to give power to bearable Shadow cards like Saruman's Staff, Fell Beast, some [Wraith] Rings, Goblin Spear (+ Frenzy, for Moria corruption), The Balrog's Sword + Whip of Many Thongs (with non-underground Balrogs and Power and Terror), even Broad-Bladed Sword. And in the normal FOTR format I see often equipment for Nazgul (Sword, Pale Blade, Morgul Blade and sometimes Black Steed) and the Cave Troll, and high vitality Goblins can use the mighty Moria Axe (I have a very competitive deck based on that card). And Saruman's Power doesn't solve the issue, unless you pack 4 copies and use it each time Disarmed hits the board.

But actually my main discordance is the lack of flavor: it should only discard weapons, during the [Gondor] man's skirmish, and the Shadow player should have some alternative cost like exerting the targeted minion. With that in mind, I'd have made it this way:

[1] Disarmed [Gondor]
Condition • Support Area
-3 strength
While borne by a minion, discard each weapon it bears. Limit 1 per minion.
Skirmish: Exert a [Gondor] Man to transfer this condition from your support area to a minion skirmishing him or her. Its owner may exert that minion to prevent this.


- The Art of Gandalf: In FOTR block you can stack 4 copies of No Mere Ranger (+ the Saga of Elendil) in the Shards of Narsil, and at site 8 play a fresh Aragorn from hand (or from deck with Prancing Pony + Hobbit Farmer)... both are unlikely to happen. I'm glad that you approve this idea.

- Guardian: R-listing Guardian seems VERY interesting. Toil isn't a FOTR block mechanic, but a single copy of a single card shouldn't cause too much trouble. :up:

- Sword of Boromir: Yes, it might become a real pain with Merry FtS. But requires to discard cards borne by Boromir, so he won't be fully equiped when facing the minion Merry was going to fight, and Boromir often will fight twice. That's important when you are forced to discard an Armor or the Saga of Elendil to save Merry from a tank like the Cave Troll or Lurtz. And most of those cards will be adding twilight when played.

To counter Merry there are good cards like Throw Yourself In Next Time, You Bring Great Evil or The Nine Servants of Sauron.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 12:52:53 PM by Durin's Heir »
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September 12, 2015, 06:50:17 AM
Reply #40

Dictionary

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Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2015, 06:50:17 AM »
I must say, you've convinced me on pretty much every point here. The only other argument I could make for Disarmed would be to R-List it, I can understand why it would warp the format otherwise. I'm glad you like Deceit :) You make a really good point with Art of Gandalf/Shards of Narsil too, I wouldn't mind trying out that strategy in Fellowship Block with the shards. It's also true that a Sword of Boromir deck filled with [Gondor] junk isn't going to have much space for other stuff. What did you think about my argument for Final Triumph though? Do you still think it's too powerful?

EDIT: Forgot to mention before, but I love Moria Axe ;D it would be so overpowered if only goblins had more vitality/fierce options. Is that competitive deck the one with Dwarves and Gandalf? Or maybe I'm thinking of something else...
« Last Edit: September 12, 2015, 04:50:24 PM by Dictionary »
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September 12, 2015, 05:15:34 PM
Reply #41

Durin's Heir

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Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2015, 05:15:34 PM »
The problem I fear with Final Triumph is rising the power of Uruks even more. Saruman's Staff + Throne (KoI supporting uruks, with strength 13 dmg+2 fierce!) and Lurtz's Bow will provide strong reinforcements to Beatdown Uruk decks (while Gollum DaD and The Art of Gandalf -stacking Cruel Caradhras- will help Worry decks). Uruks rely on strength and have plenty of ways to rise it, so allowing'em to swap that aspect if they are finally losing a key skirmish when their tricks and nature isn't enough might be a bit too much.

Moreover, Final Triumph makes them able to kill companions too easily as most FP fighters have only 3 vitality (and Saruman's Power gets rid of vitality conditions), KoI and Broad-Bladed Sword will protect you if you face archery (and archery should be less dominant), Uruks can easily become fierce to wear down the fellowship, you can exert/wound companions in other phases than skirmish ([Sauron] grind -now with Grishnak & Orc Patrol!-, [Moria] archery, [Isengard] Orcs, Orthanc Berserker, OoYMDT) and many Uruks have good vitality (Troop + Lurtz's Bow will have 5!). So it's not a matter of only overwhelming a guy with 2 vitality who bears an Armor (or killing him if he/she doesn't). What about Fror, Gimli, Ironfoot, Elladan, Elrohir, a self-exerted Gandalf... The cost of [4] might look high, but if we R-list some choke cards like NSttS to allow more expensive Shadow strategies to be viable, 4 free twilight will be available very often. Uruk Brood and Uruk Slayer can use that twilight in absense of a trick that changes so much the usual game dynamics.

The FP side will have to focus on strength or skirmish survival tricks, but also on corruption as that aspect of the game will have a huge power rise.


EDIT: About Moria Axe, yes, it's that conditionless Dwarves deck supported by Gandy, Double Edged Dwarven Axes. Though that decklist is a bit outdated. I'll post the current list, mainly differs in that you get Gandalf much sooner.

The only way to add more vitality options is Host of Moria I think, and the Throne of Isengard (+ Of Many Colours!) can make a muscular Goblin fierce. So if we add the Host, Moria Axe beatdown decks will have a good power rise. Thanks for mentioning it!
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 12:53:15 PM by Durin's Heir »
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September 12, 2015, 06:44:51 PM
Reply #42

Durin's Heir

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Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2015, 06:44:51 PM »
Perhaps R-listing Disarmed will be a good idea. :up:

What about Shadowy Mount?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2015, 07:41:47 PM by Durin's Heir »
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September 14, 2015, 02:16:01 AM
Reply #43

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Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #43 on: September 14, 2015, 02:16:01 AM »
I like Shadowy Mount, can't see it being that overpowered given what's already here, especially considering the 2 twilight cost. It plays underground though, which is a tad annoying, but then so does Fell Beast, so I guess we'll just have to live with that.

I'm going back through all our conversations to try and make a tangible of list of all the stuff we've come up with so far, once I'm done I'll post it and you guys can check that everything meets with your approval (Since there may be mistakes, or controversial cards). I must say that the Additional Valid part is pretty long :-S
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September 14, 2015, 12:58:36 PM
Reply #44

Durin's Heir

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Re: Hybrid Formats
« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2015, 12:58:36 PM »
Yes, the "Additional Valid" (AV) list will be very long. The "Valid Sets" (VS) list will comprise Sets 1-3, plus Set 16 (Barrow Wights & Dagorlad Wraiths). There are many Set 14 cards that will be included but not the whole Set, so a way of reducing the AV list is to include Set 14 as a VS, and each card we don't want from that set should be added to the X-list. Those are:

- [Gondor] Duilin, Ranger From Blackroot Vale
- [Gondor] Duinhir, Tall Man of Blackroot Vale

- [Men] Furious Hillman
- [Men] Swarming Hillman

- [Orc] Half-Troll of Far Harad
- [Orc] Horror of Harad

Still under consideration:
- [Gandalf] Grimbeorn, Beorning Chieftain (?) (We'll need to playtest)
- [Uruk] Uruk-Hai Scout (?) (We'll need to playtest)

Therefore, the remaining Set 14 cards will be included to play, but will be excluded from the AV list:

- [Dwarven] Dain Ironfoot, King Under the Mountain
- [Elven] Gildor Inglorion, of the House of Finrod
- [Elven] Elladan, Son of Elrond
- [Elven] Elrohir, Son of Elrond
- [Gandalf] Brand, King of Dale
- [Gondor] Halbarad, Ranger of the North
- [Uruk] Uruk-Hai Healer

- [Gandalf] Grimbeorn, Beorning Chieftain (?)
- [Uruk] Uruk-Hai Scout (?)

That way we can save a good bunch of AV list space (7 to 9 cards) and thus also headaches to Gemp players.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 01:35:18 PM by Durin's Heir »
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”  - Malcolm X