Hybrid Formats

[Dictionary]

Ah good, I wasn't sure if you intended to x-list some of the less useful ones. This list is of course mostly yours and dmaz's ideas, so point out anything you don't like and I'll correct it (It should mostly reflect the stuff you agreed on, though). I have attempted to compile our thoughts and discussions in a list below, but it's built on several assumptions, listed thus:

1)   I have listed Reflections and Expanded Middle-Earth as valid sets, with several of their cards on the x-list. This helps slim down the Additional Valid list (As you just mentioned)
2)   No alternate RBs, save Bilbo.
3)   There was early discussion about which men should be added. This list currently goes with dmaz's point in Reply #10. Personally I dislike Erland and Dasron, but I might prefer Librarian over Barliman, as I'm not sure how useful Barliman's ability is.
4)   We still need to iron out generic weapons for cultures.
5)   Since we R-Listed Horn of Boromir, the extra Horn counters from later sets are not currently in the list, including Ranks Without Number, as several effective counters to it were mentioned (And Saruman, SotE + Staff kills Boromir). Tom Bombadil is not yet R-Listed.
6)   I've included as much stuff as possible for the moment. We may want to review and cut stuff from the list that isn't having much of an impact, to help thin down the list.
7)   I currently have Grimbeorn on the list, as it seemed like the consensus before was that he was overpowered. On top of that, I would agree with such a view, I think he would seriously skew the format otherwise (Particularly with his axe)

Enhanced Fellowship Block:
Valid sets: 1, 2, 3, 9, 14, 16
Sites from block: Fellowship
Ring-bearer skirmish can be cancelled: No

X-listed: Grimbeorn, Beorning Chieftain; Elendil, the Tall; Gil Galad, Elven High King; Durin III; Linnar; Uri; Sindri; Gimli, BoG; Galadriel, BoW; Boromir, BoC; Smeagol, BoGS; Isildur, BoH; Horror of Harad; Furious Hillman; Swarming Hillman; Half-Troll of Far Harad; Duilin, Ranger from Blackroot Vale; Duinhir, Tall Man of Blackroot Vale; Slippery as Fishes; Huorn; Horn of the mark; Aiglos; Sapling of the White Tree; Seeing Stone of Orthanc

R-listed: Guardian, Horn of Boromir, Disarmed, No Stranger to the Shadows

Additional valid: The Balrog, the Terror of Khazad-Dum; The Balrog, Terror of Flame and Shadow; Durin's Tower; Reaching Tentacle; Strong Tentacle; Barliman Butterbur, Red-Faced Landlord; Beorning Axe; Ghan-buri-Ghan, Chieftain of the Woses; Radagast's Staff; The Art of Gandalf; Tom Bombadil's Hat; The Mouth of Sauron, Lieutenant of Barad-Dur; Grishnakh, Orc Captain; Orc Patrol; Eye of Barad-dur; Saruman's Staff, Wizard's Device; Saruman, Of Many Colours; Throne of Isengard; Lurtz's Bow; Ugluk, SoS; Men Will Fall; Uruk Chaser; Uruk Plains Runner; Broad-Bladed Sword; Black Shapes Crawling; Urgency; Fell Beast; Ring of Savagery; Ring of Terror; The Pale Blade, Sword of Flame; Dark Swooping Shadows; Houses of Lamentation; Shadowy Mount; Riders in Black; Gimli, OG; Thorin III, Stonehelm; Thrarin, Smith of Erebor; Grimir, Dwarven Emissary; Elrond, Elven Lord; Guardian; Disarmed; Anduril, FOTW; Aragorn, Strider; Boromir, DG; Sword of Boromir; Evil-Smelling Fens; Deceit;

Other possibilites: Orc Cutthroat, Loathsome, Ranks Without Number, Guidance of the Istari, Naith Longbow, Sword of Gondor

I count 44 Additional Valid cards. Counting the number of cards in Gemp's Standard X-List (The longest list), I get a bit over 50. So it's not too bad relative to that. But the real question I guess is how readable it is. Listed by culture, we get this:


The Mouth of Sauron, Lieutenant of Barad-Dur
Grishnakh, Orc Captain
Orc Patrol
Eye of Barad-dur


Saruman's Staff, Wizard's Device
Saruman, Of Many Colours
Throne of Isengard;
Ugluk, SoS
Men Will Fall
Uruk Chaser
Uruk Plains Runner
Broad-Bladed Sword
Lurtz's Bow (Technically but it comes to more or less the same thing here)
Urgency
Black Shapes Crawling


Fell Beast
Ring of Savagery
Ring of Terror
The Pale Blade, Sword of Flame
Shadowy Mount
Dark Swooping Shadows
Houses of Lamentation
Riders in Black


The Balrog, the Terror of Khazad-Dum
The Balrog, Terror of Flame and Shadow
Durin's Tower
Reaching Tentacle
Strong Tentacle


Evil Smelling Fens
Deceit


Gimli, OG
Thorin III, Stonehelm
Thrarin, Smith of Erebor
Grimir, Dwarven Emissary


Elrond, Elven Lord


Guardian
Disarmed
Anduril, FOTW
Boromir, DG
Sword of Boromir
Aragorn, Strider


Tom Bombadil's Hat


Barliman Butterbur, Red-Faced Landlord
Beorning Axe
Ghan-buri-Ghan, Chieftain of the Woses
Radagast's Staff
The Art of Gandalf

So assuming I've compiled everything correctly (Fingers crossed!) this is what we have so far. It looks like there's less stuff for FP, but I guess that was the point because sets 9 and 14 are mostly FP. What are your thoughts?

EDIT 1: Durin's Heir's points (See below) have been implemented. The less confident ones (Sword of the Fallen, The Flame of Anor etc.) have not yet been added.

EDIT 2: Eye of Barad dur added for the time being. Added some weapons to the Other Possibilities List - Any feedback on items in this list would be appreciated.

[Durin's Heir]

Barliman is better than Librarian. The latter needs tokens and/or followers, which aren't FOTR block mechanics and won't be present. On the other hand, Barliman is lore consistent and can be decent with a Beorning Axe, a Flaming Brand and King Brand (str 8, vit 4), and an Armor or Coat of Mail. And his skill can be useful if you need events, moreover with Strength of Spirit or Might of Numenor.


The list isn't perfect, but almost. I think you forgot about Aragorn Strider. Perhaps Orc Cutthroat can be considered. I think you are adding The Binding Ring to the format (it's not on the X-list); that's a nice accident!

We must keep Loathsome and Ranks Without Number in mind. R-listing the Horn of Boromir might not be sufficient, and those cards have usefulnesses for themselves.

Dark Swooping Shadows and Houses of Lamentation should be out IMO (aren't lore consistent; DSS can add threats and the Houses makes Bill Ferny too dangerous); Riders in Black should be in their place. But must be unbugged first!


There are more Set 9 cards to X-list. Those are Slippery as Fishes (tank Gollum!), Huorn (unconsistent, and a durable cannon fodder), Horn of the Mark (powerful and doesn't fit), Sapling of the White Tree (we don't want an unkillable Boromir!), Aiglos (Greenleaf, oh my!), Seeing Stone of Orthanc (unconsistent, and uses threats).

Ent Draught, Narya Ring of Fire and The Red Arrow are useless. Merry's Dagger, Pippin's Dagger, Freca are almost useless. So we won't waste space in adding them to the X-list.

In the middleground there are these cards:
- Strands of Elven Hair is almost useless, but brings culture tokens which isn't in our plans.
- Sack of the Shire can only be loosely considered as part of Frodo's vision at the Mirror.
- The Rings can help Dwarves, but lorewise were lost to Sauron or to Dragon Fire (I know, I'm a Dwarf and should keep my mouth shut).
- Everyone Knows isn't lore consistent, but has little use without vitality boosters
- What about Sauron, the Lord of the Rings? He could take form without The One, unlike PJ's idea in the first trilogy, and without threats and controlled sites only burdens (and Ithil Stone) will cheapen him, but still don't know if should be present so far from Mordor.
- Ithil Stone and Seeing Stone of Minas Anor were present, though their part was revealed at TTT and ROTK. May be ok, like The Mouth of Sauron.

Those are cards we must study a bit more. I'd say yes to all at first glance, but a further review can bring more light.

That's all by now. Thanks for your valuable effort . Try to order the list by card type (comps, allies, artifacts, possessions, events, conditions) or by theme (Saruman OMC, Staff, Throne; Ugluk, Chaser, Plains Runner; Broad-bladed Sword, Black Shapes Crawling...).

[Durin's Heir]

4)   We still need to iron out generic weapons for cultures.

This point is very simple. and don't need more weapons. Same with (Beorning Axe for Men, Radagast's Staff and Wizard Staff for The Brown). That leaves only and .

Gondor has the Blade of Gondor (2 versions) for Boromir, and Ranger's Sword and Anduril FOTW for Aragorn. For Halbarad or anyone, there's Flaming Brand for strength and Narsil for vitality and wound prevention. A generic sword may help, but is not necessary. The options are:
- Gondorian Blade (damage),
- Gondorian Sword (less damage, more cycling)
- Sword of Gondor (damage to Bill Ferny, Freca and the Mouth of Sauron).

Elves don't need too much, the newcomers have a really good base strength. And they have the Elven Bow to give troubles. But we can add:
- Sword of the Fallen (too powerful IMO),
- Blade of Lindon Johnson (powerful with late sites),
- Elven Sword (cycling)

Those are the options worthy of evaluation in my opinion. 1 for each culture can help. But in both cases is not strictly necessary.

3)   There was early discussion about which Gandalf men should be added... Personally I dislike Erland and Dasron...

This point is somewhat solved, but touches another which isn't. Men will need a pump, and the only pump for them in FOTR block is SotSF (with Gandy).

The power rise in the Shadow side will be astonishing, and those strength 5 or 6 guys (8 or 9 if fully equipped) will need good survival mechanisms. They'll be facing The Balrog, Saruman fully geared, the Witch King with other Nazzies, a Cave Troll, Moria Axes, perhaps Sauron in person. Those monsters vote for my point!

So we must include either Erland DC to recycle those SotSF (very powerful with a Beorning Axe) or a universal pump like For A While Less Dark (weak), The Terror of His Coming (weak), The Sap is in the Bough (weak), The Flame of Anor (medium power), Guidance of the Istari (powerful, up to 8 strength if Anduin Confluence doesn't strike), Be Gone! (powerful but costly). Those events would help Radagast too, which hasn't any card until Set 10 except Wizard Staff.

I think that Guidance of the Istari can be a good incentive to play Gandalf Men, which are otherwise plainly weak (even with Brand, Flaming Brand and Beorning Axe; Cantea eats them!). There's no burden-removal mechanics here (Jarnsmid BE, Watch and Wait), tokens (Librarian, Last Stand), resistance triggered tricks (G for Grand) nor followers (Barliman, Strange Meeting), so their only tool for fighting must be pure strength. And Ally Hate can cripple a lot that strategy. Speak Friend And Enter and Elrond LoR + Master of Healing might try to protect those Men allies from cards like Their Power is in Terror, Tower Assassin and Anduin Confluence, but there's nothing more. The Board is Set would help but isn't present.

I'd vote for Guidance if there's only 1 slot; Guidance + The Flame of Anor if there's 2. And Be Gone! is very interesting...

All in all, even Dasron can become interesting. He's base strength 6, and would bring a 4th man companion in absense of Erland (they are somewhat disposable).


We want to listen to other persons' opinion. Dmaz, Euk, Sgtdraino, Ket, Not a Zombie, Bib, Cw0rk, Cthulhu... Everyone is welcome.

[Durin's Heir]

I've been thinking a bit about Barliman's skill. It can be powerful with a generic pump, Gandalf and Hugin + Fireworks in a wicked Fireworks manipulation deck. Durin's Secret can help you run, so the natural pairing would be anything that stops your opponent.


About generic weapons... if Elves get some help, Elven Sword or Blade of Lindon can incentive players to ditch their Elven Bows and that's a good thing. But Sword of the Fallen gets fed by archery, so it isn't a good option.

Men will get cycling with Gondorian Sword, but at the expense of losing the permanent damage and having to ditch many cards to substitute it; that may be a good balance in theory. Gondorian Blade will render Ranger's Sword useless (they will do exactly the same, except that GB doesn't specify Aragorn). Sword of Gondor is the weakest of all, and you can still get damage with Dagger Strike or Still Sharp. There's Denethor's Sword too ... Those are the options, as Knight's Spear uses threats and Ithilien Blade is too powerful in the first sites (when Gondor men are more vulnerable).

Cycling FP cards were added in Towers Block to add more fluidity to deck builds. In this new format, that may be a good thing in order to allow large and complicated decks to work well. So I like the options of Gondorian Sword and Elven Sword, though more discussion and playtesting can be necessary.

[Dictionary]

I'm wary of adding more Gandalf pumps, as well as companions like Erland and Dasron because of the looping potential (As you just said) and Grimbeorn makes this worse. I feel like that sort of thing really belongs in Expanded, and ought to stay there. That said, Dasron needs tokens, which aren't really present (Strands of Elven Hair), we can allow Guidance of the Istari for the moment, and we can see whether playtesting makes too powerful. I also feel like the cycling cards like Elven Sword etc. belong in the later formats, I don't like the idea of having them in Fellowship (Which already has Gwemegil and Gift of the Evenstar) for this purpose anyway, so I'd vote for Blade of Lindon and Sword of Gondor (Though we may not need or weapons at all, as you pointed out.) On the other hand, if we want to discourage Elven Bow, we could add Naith Longbow as a card, since it would be the only generic strength bonus (Without swords) for people like Glorfindel, and there's a big difference between 9 and 10 strength.

Couple of other cards have come to my mind:
Eye of Barad Dur - Alternative strength pump for as they only have Enduring Evil otherwise, and that makes them a bit predictable. It's also a solid counter to Sting for the culture, and encourages corruption.

Hadafang: Elrond can use, but perhaps its ability is too strong, particularly if both it and gwemegil can co-exist (Unless Gwemegil is x-listed so that it can replace it)

Should Sam, SoH be x-listed, or at least r-listed? We want to encourage corruption, but he pretty much breaks it on his own. R-listing wouldn't hurt hobbits, but might make him less splashable and encourage people to use Green Dragon Inn over Prancing Pony. Alternatively, we could X-list him and replace with Needer of Vittles or Samwise the Brave (Otherwise unused cards).

I'm happy with Orc Cutthroat and Sauron, TLOTR

[Eukalyptus]

SoH is only once in the deck anyhow, so R-listing him would affect nothing. Either X-list him or don't.

[Dictionary]

I use more than one copy Depends how much you want to bid. But I admit R-Listing wouldn't have great effect.

[Durin's Heir]

I'm glad to see you Euk bringing your valuable opinion. Welcome, please keep contributing. You are right: either X-list or... nothing. I think nothing is better.

The potential of corruption Shadows will be marvelously increased: Gollum DaD and Ring of Asperity (Lost to the Goblinses, Twilight Nazzies, Worry), The Pale Blade Sword of Flame, Fell Beast for Twilight Nazzies, non-underground Balrogs for Must Do Without Hope, Set 16 Wraiths... even The Art of Gandalf (can stack Cruel Caradhras to play 3 or 4 at once while Saruman's Ambition makes them free). Frenzy can easily kill exhausted companions, and if you assign a goblin bearing a Goblin Spear you'll get 1 or 2 burdens (unique Orcs will get Durin's Tower, plus the already present Dark Places).

I think we'll only have 3 main options to counter corruption: Sam SoH, Tom Bombadil and Tom Bombadil's Hat. Tom brings large troubles by himself, and might be R-listed. Tom Bombadil's Hat requires 2 Hobbit comps so many decks won't play it, and has other disadvantages like possession discard (Isen Smith or Beauty is Fading), Black Breath on Frodo/Bilbo or the simple fact of not being able to start it; might be R-listed too, to prevent packing 4 copies. So if we remove Sam SoH there will be only 2 options that are likely more troublesome than Sam himself.

(I know there are Narya, Gandalf's Pipe, Elf Song... but aren't so splashable, and corruption will be a universal threat).

Sam SoH has many counters: Hate, Frenzy, Saruman SotE, Helpless, Throw Yourself in Next Time, You Bring Great Evil. Bill Ferny if he's splashed. And as you say, R-listing a companion that can be played in either Site 1 or starting fellowship won't have almost any effect. But Dictionary's alternative versions of Sam are very interesting! Samwise the Brave seems really cool, if we X-list SoH.




Dasron will have tokens (Tom Bombadil's Hat and Strands) so he should be out. Erland is an alternative to adding a generic pump, but if we add both they'll be overpowered. Guidance of the Istari is very powerful but has its frailness: Anduin Confluence, Tower Assassin and Their Power Is In Terror discard or kill your main force of Men, leaving only your companions safe. As said before, I vote for Guidance. Even with a pump like The Flame of Anor they'll be the weakest subculture in skirmishes (they don't heal, remove burdens, have damage bonuses, discard minions nor conditions... they only fight and only Ghan is good in that), so the pump must be very solid to correct that.

And Gandalf has only 2 event pumps (Mysterious Wizard and SotSF), plus TMAYOD, I don't think a 3rd event will bring any imbalance. With Men, only the very useless The Grey Wizard will be able to bring a 3rd Gandalf signet for a TMAYOD deck (with Frodo OBH and Radagast) while allowing enough companion room for Gandy Men.


It's not true that Sauron Orcs have only Enduring Evil as pump. They have Strength Born of Fear (Wow! = +1 strength!) . But your idea is magnificent! I love the Eye of Barad-dur, and it's totally lore-consistent (Sauron vs Frodo at Amon Hen, with a little help of Gandalf).


About the generic weapons, Sword of Gondor seems fine as doesn't replace the quality of Aragorn and Boromir's swords. About , Naith Longbow has my vote, good call my friend! That, only if we are adding and generic weapons.

Hadafang is too powerful I think. To counter Elven condition discard in FOTR, you must get rid of allies and that's hard to achieve. Should we give them another option? I'd like to see Elrond wileding that saber, but the cons are mighty.

Nice review my fellows!

[Dictionary]

List updated. Coming back to the point about Houses of Lamentation, wouldn't Riders in Black also make Ferny too dangerous? There's not even a limit on that card. And will we be testing with the Revised Towers Standard Gemp format? If so, should there be a policy on sites?

[Eukalyptus]

Please excuse that I didn't read through the whole thread, but please explain to me why this thread was started as an enhancement with flavor cards that fitted thematically with FotR now has stuff like Fell Beast (dmaz explained this one, but I think it too far fetched - or R-list it), Houses of Lamentation and The Pale Blade, Sword of Flame?

Eye of Barad-dur I like very much!

[Dictionary]

We certainly could R-List it, that would be cool. I don't think Houses of Lamentation is actually in at the moment, but we were examining cards to help the Barrow Wights, who are thematic, but are pretty weak. And The Pale Blade's picture is fine, I don't know why Decipher subtitled it Sword of Flame, if they wanted that they should've used the picture of the sword that you see in The Witch King, Dark Lord.

[Eukalyptus]

I thought you were going for lore, not pictures?

[Dictionary]

You say that like they're unrelated, but I think there's a correlation between the two. I would not like to add Boromir, HoO simply because Boromir himself was present (And had already won that battle) because the image is very reminiscent of The Two Towers, and this is Enhanced Fellowship Block. You'll also notice that many of the cards being added use imagery from the first film (Disarmed, Guardian, every Balrog, Barliman, tentacles), or concepts that should/could have been in the first film (Tom Bombadil, Ugluk, Saruman's Staff, possibly Mouth of Sauron etc.). My point with The Pale Blade was that if it had been in a picture of the ROTK Witch King it would have been harder to justify, since he didn't look like that in Fellowship of the Ring. Besides, The Pale Blade was present in The Fellowship of the Ring lorewise, and the Witch King always used the same sword, so why do you say it's unthematic?

[Eukalyptus]

With this logic you'd have to include every single card with a picture taken from FotR footage.

I think this has gone out way of hand with what dmaz intended to do.

[Durin's Heir]

Long since my last post here...

I don't think exactly like Euk, but he makes a good point that the additions mustn't be excessive.

- Sword of Flame: Now, about the flames in the Witchie's sword, Gandalf fought the 9 riders by himself at Amon Sûl and due to the battle there was fire not seen in centuries. When Aragorn leads the hobbits it's said "...the grass was scorched and shrivelled, as if flames had swept the hill-top." Later at the Council, Gandalf says "such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old."

Clearly Gandalf was a maker of flames, but perhaps he wasn't the only one. Can be speculated that the Witch King's sorcery contributed too; the RotK book and film would support that possibility.

- Fell Beast: A winged mount alternative is The Witch King's Beast. It's unique, costs 2 twilight and doesn't cycle, so keeps the mechanics of the FOTR Nazgûls. I prefer the set 6 Fell Beast, as it helps Twilight Nazzies a lot and the twilight can be a problem, but to reduce the number of Beasts on the board there's this option.