Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game

[Durin's Heir]

I noticed you modified Sauron's text. "Allies whose home site is 3 may be assigned to skirmish or minions". If you support the wise keyword, that would be instead "Wise allies may be assigned to skirmish or minions". Much shorter. The way it's written by now doesn't allow Radagast to fight the Witch King (which happened in the movie), 'cause his home site is not 3 but 5. Nor the Necromancer, which almost happened (let's say, he exerted to prevent that)...

I'm glad Thranduil or Tauriel won't fight them with your text, but I believe Radagast should, and would be way shorter with the new keyword. Sauron's assignment ability would be much shorter too: "Assignment: Exert Sauron to assign another minion to a companion or a wise character. That character may exert to prevent this."

Elrond's passive ability may be shorter too: "At the start of each of your turns, you may heal a wise ally (or heal Elrond twice)". Same with Galadriel "... strength -3 (or -6 if a wise character is skirmishing that minion)". Saruman: "Skirmish: Exert Saruman to make a wise character strength +2 and damage +1". I know "Wise" is not a substantive but an adjective, but the same goes with "Valiant"...


I was thinking about Thráin and Sauron. Sauron killed Thráin in the movie, but the most he can do here to a follower is to discard him/her. He should have a chance to get rid of followers, moreover of Thráin as he plays new artifacts from draw deck . The Ring of Thrór can discard artifacts... I propose the following: "Maneuver: Exert Sauron twice to discard a Free Peoples artifact or follower (limit once)". As a maneuver action, the Shadow player can selectively discard a follower already attached, instead of one that won't be used...

[Durin's Heir]

Tell me if you see another problem. I will print the final cards (except for the new Shadows packs) after this playtest.

Found another possible problem. This case is about Gandalf, The Grey Wizard's fellowship ability. "Fellowship: Add 2 doubts to play a possession or a Dwarf companion from your draw deck or discard pile." Prior to the artifact templates every item was a possession, but now most items are artifacts. And even worse: there are 4 artifacts in the Main Deck, but not a single possession. Which leaves only FP Packs as source of them.

But there are some Packs which don't have possessions: Wizard, White Council and Mirkwood. Dain Pack has 1, while Thorin Pack has 3 and every other has 2 (Bilbo, Esgaroth and Thráin). Nonetheless, each FP Pack provides at least 1 possession OR artifact.

If you want to preserve the original function of The Grey Wizard, expand it to "possession, artifact or Dwarven companion...". If you think the new artifacts are too powerful to pull them from the start, you may specify "non- artifact" instead of just "artifact" (3 of 4 Main Deck artifacts are non- ). There is still the option of not changing anything, considering that version of our beloved grumpy-grandfather Wizard costs only and wounds a minion when playing a event (did somebody say "burning fir cones"? ). But in my opinion it should be changed to at least non- artifacts.

[-Enola-]

Ok thank you for all your comments.

We will speak with the other players about your ideas (mostly about the "Wise" passive keyword). I will let you know what we will change.

[Durin's Heir]

Great! Here's a summary of my points:

- 'Wise' keyword.
- Eagles Are Coming as a Maneuver/Skirmish event.
- Narya drawing 1 per turn.
- Ring of Thrór discarding a follower.
- Update The Grey Wizard to play artifacts too (given the artifact templates).
- Former Herald not needing Gandalf.

Have a nice meeting sir, you and your buddies!

[-Enola-]

Thank you for your summary.
I will not have internet this week-end, I will answer all the details of the next updates next week .

[-Enola-]

Hey Durin's Heir,

I update the first post with all the possible next updates. Tell me what you think about it.
We think Saruman must still be able to bring back Gandalf in the fight.
Narya is really powerful without an additional text.

Thank you a lot.

[Durin's Heir]

You're welcome my friend! I like most changes:

- The "Wise" keyword will shorten for good many gametext here and there! That will be very important with Sauron and the Nazgul. GREAT!
- The Grey Wizard seems better now costing 4 and playing artifacts. He shouldn't really play the Black Arrow, the Oakenshield or some lesser weaponry...
- Legolas' upgrade at forest/river makes much sense. It can punish the Shadow player when turning sites into forest to play Spiders.
- same goes with Spider's Nest. But I'd change the name to "Spiders' Nest" (plural form). Or just leave it as Spider Nest (no apostrophe).
- Gollum's assignment ability is a smart way of dealing with your rule of a max of 1 active and 1 passive abilities. Besides, exerting him 3 times to make him a base strength 8 minion was too powerful against Bilbo.
- Thrór's Key looks much better! Looks now more like an indispensable decive for the Quest, as is in the book/movies.
- Oakenshield as a shield is good (a good close fighting shield), as Thorin bears it with some Dwarven Bracers below. That allows to add a version of Dwarven Bracers to an Extension Set and play both on Thorin if chances meet...
- Thráin playing items on solely bearer seems more logical, as it turns the item into a price for winning bearer's skirmish.


A couple of things to consider:

- Watchful Orc: Its passive ability changes each site on the adventure path, BUT that affects each site present right now (see Deft in Their Movements*). Which means, if you choose "mountain" to play Smaug and then you change the current site to a non-mountain of yours, the new site doesn't become a mountain by Watchful Orc's effect and Smaug would be discarded if played.... I think it's ok, as it limits that powerful Orc a bit.

*Ruling about Deft in Their Movements: http://lotrtcgwiki.com/wiki/comprehensive_rules_4-0

"Deft in Their Movements (Regroup: "Spot 2 Hobbits to make each site's Shadow number –2 until the end of the turn.") affects only sites that are in play when it is played."


- Saruman & Radagast: There's a possible loop with Saruman and Radagast to make the move limit potentially infinite, if those packs happen to meet: discard Gandalf with Saruman and replay him with Radagast, to make the move limit +1 each time, costing Gandalf's twilight cost and allowing a Shadow player to draw 2. It's not so powerful given the high twilight and Shadow drawing cost, but if you want to prevent it you can change Saruman's text from "discard a Wise character" to "discard a Wise character (except Gandalf)". EDIT: Actually thst combo is quite powerful, if happens that your opponent runs out of draw deck...



Some ideas:

- Thrór's Map looks a bit weak: given the omnipresence of Watchful Orc it's effect won't be so important, moreover with site effects in maneuver or other phases than Fellowship or Shadow. Unless Thrór's Map specifies something like "That site cannot be replaced until the end of the turn." Besides, Thrór's Map was used during the whole travel to Erebor, that is, at least until site 7, and the way it is by now is just usable once. Elrond might be involved (he did read the signs): "Exert 2 dwarves (or Elrond twice) or discard this possession to play the fellowship's next site" or so...

- Narya: I agree that +1 vitality and keeping Gandalf at 5 is good power for a single card. I just saw the possibility of adding a passive text, as with Leader of the Company or after site 5 won't do anything else than giving +1 vitality. Maybe something powerful and clever but costly like "Each time you play a event, you may exert Gandalf twice to place than event in your hand instead of your discard pile" (Into Dark Tunnels), or so...

- Baïn: I wonder if his healing skill is really necessary, given The Master will heal Bard too. If you want to make Bard skirmish more often, let's say, more than twice per game, then Baïn should heal himself, or should heal any [Dale] man instead of only Bard... Consider the Esgaroth Pack won't have Emeralds of Girion to heal [Dale] men.

- Eagles Are Coming: I feel the Great Eagles should be able to help the Company more than once in the same site, it would fit better with the book/movie. You might change it to a "Maneuver or Skirmish" event, and change "You may attach a follower to a companion" to "You may attach a follower from your support area to a companion". That's very different from the previous version I proposed: with the new proposal you won't attach Beorn to different companions because he won't return to the support area, only Gwaihir can do that. Besides, as a Skirmish event it preserves the surprise factor (just watch again Azog's face at Ravenhill when he saw the Eagles arriving!).

- Beorn: He NEEDS to give damage +1. Just rewatch the last movie... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_G7mQ-OXTs He's just AWESOME.

- Saruman: I agree with the necessity of replaying Gandalf from discard, that's good. But too I wonder if you tested the new FP Packs against the new Beatdown Pack (Sauron/Nazgul/Smaug)... That is really important as it will determine the structure of the Shadow to be balanced by the FP. More concretely, the points I made with Saruman will be extremely important once the Sauron and Nazgul Packs arrive: Galadriel and The White Council (who will be assigned by Sauron) will need strength support to win skirmishes or not being killed, and damage addition to kill minions; the strength bonus must be payed by anyone but Galadried (or she'll be killed).

How can we keep both abilities amongst the White Council? I think Saruman should be another exception to your rule of only 1 active skill (as Emeralds of Girion and the Arkenstone are). His 2 skills are very short, and the skirmish ability is short too (even shorter given the Wise keyword), so that's very posible.

Apart from that, I'd change his lore text to "Are you in need of assistance, my Lady?" (if there is one).

- Galadriel: Her skirmish skill might be changed to depend on the total of Wise characters you spot; it would give a stronger feeling of unity amongst the White Council: "Skirmish: Exert Galadriel and discard a Shadow card from hand to make a minion strength -2 (or -1 for each Wise character you spot, if a Wise character is skirmishing that minion)". From -2 to -4, or -5 if Radagast too joins the party. Remeber her vitality and strength are quite limited.

Galadriel might heal any Wise character instead of only Gandalf, that way she would be able to heal herself and have more chances of surviving.


That's all by now. Have a nice day sir!

EDIT: A last idea... but actually not an important idea. What if Gandalf, The Grey Wizard is called only "Gandalf, The Grey"? It would differ with the FOTR version 1P364, and would fit better too with the subtitles of the other 2 Wizards here: Saruman is "The White" and not "The White Wizard", Radagast is "The Brown" instead of "The Brown Wizard". I said it was a nonsense...

[-Enola-]

Thank you a lot for your ideas, here are some changes:

- Gandalf, The Grey the (4) cost is an error, he will still cost (2) since he can't easily play companions from the draw deck like the others Gandalf. I also change the subtitle to "The Grey".
- Oakenshield The minion archery total is -1. (the text was too long)
- Spider Nest Another mistake , I write it to fast. I will not change the name .
- Watchful Orc: You are absolutely right, I just change the text :
When you play this minion, you may play the fellowship's next site. Shadow: Exert this minion twice to make each site on the adventure path gains battleground, mountain, forest or underground until the end of the turn.
- Saruman & Radagast: Ok I just change Saruman :
Fellowship or Regroup: Discard a Wise ally to play Gandalf from your discard pile.
Skirmish: Exert Saruman to make a minion strength -2.
- Thrór's Map Ok I just change it with your text.
- Narya: I think the text is powerful enough. All the +1 Vitality Rings from LOTR TCG have only one ability.
- Baïn: Bard is the center of all the Esgaroth Pack and Narzug can be a real pain against this deck and Baïn is only related to Bard. I will upgrade Baïn by healing Bard twice now.
- Eagles Are Coming: The players think that in Skirmish, the event will be far too powerful. I change the text.
- Beorn: There will be too much sentences. I think the card is powerful, but balanced now.
- Galadriel: I change it, but with the previous version. I think 3 will be the average number of Wise characters.


I also add these changes:

- • Mithril Coat : Cost (2). Artifact • Armor. Bearer must be Bilbo. Each minion skirmishing bearer loses all damage bonuses. Response: If a skirmish event is played during a a skimish involving Bilbo, exert him twice to cancel that event.
- • Great Barricade : Cost (2). Possession • Support Area. Fortification. To play, exert a companion. If the fellowship moves during the regroup phase, discard this possession. At sites 7 and 8, each minion skirmishing a Dwarf companion is strength -3.
- Goblin Sneak  : cost (1). Minion. When you play this minion, you may place an Orc (or 2 Orcs at an underground site) from your discard pile beneath your draw deck.
- • Burglar's Contract : Cost (1). Possession. Skirmish : Add a doubt and exert Bilbo to make another companion strength +2 (limit +4).
- Site 2 : The Troll Hoard. New image (too dark).

[Durin's Heir]

- Gandalf, The Grey.
- Spider Nest.
- Great Barricade. This change can allow Dwalin to face many minions at once without too much risk.
- Goblin Sneak. This will bring importance to using Watchful Orc to induce the underground keyword.
- The Troll Hoard. Better name.
- Watchful Orc. I really like your new version! As it doesn't change the current but the next site, the power of Thrór's Map doesn't get absobed by merely playing this Orc from hand or discard pile (that will be very important to new sites in the Extensions, like The Forges of Erebor). Great! It lacks the "(replacing opponent's site if necessary)" part, and it must say "gain" instead of its plural form (Thorin's Harp).
- Thrór's Map. While the Orcs have their Watchful Orc, Thráin's Pack can provide Thrór's Map, and a very interesting struggle to get the best sites of each player into the sitepath may begin. The power of the sitepath is a point I love in this Draft Game my friend.
- Former Herald: Except for the little mistake in the text: "Exert a Wise ally to make him..." What about Galadriel? It should be "to make that ally". Besides that, great.



Things I would change or rethink:

- Mithril Coat: It's a good ability to reduce the archery by 1, Narzug will be present in each Shadow that wants to have it. But we cannot counter that huge archery wounding of Bolg's Specialized Archers with only 1 shield/armor, and moreover considering it's a Pack that can be chosen only randomly. The discussion about the new Swarm Pack was prorogued due to the changes and improvement in the FP Packs, and I was aiming to end the details about the last Pack to be done in the Beatdown Pack: we still haven't defined the last details with The Nazgul and their general strategy. But one thing is very clear about Bolg's Archers: there isn't a single way to counter that massive archery wounding by the FP player. In LOTR TCG there are 3 options basically: massive healing (Hobbit Hospital, Elrond HtGG, Might of Numenor...), wound prevention (Isildur's Bane...) and shields. And none of those are present here (happily, massive healing would be too much). Let me propose something, add to each optional ability that adds archery (be it active or passive) an option to the FP player to do instead: Bolg's "Archery: Discard an Orc to make the minion archery total +1. The Free Peoples player may add a doubt instead." So it would end as an archery/corruption Shadow. Or Bolg's "At the start of the archery phase, the Free Peoples player must discard a card from hand or wound an unwounded companion for each other [Gundabad] archer you spot"; archery/discarding Shadow. Or Orkish Pursuer's "Archery: Exert this minion and another Orc archer to make the minion archery total +1. The Free Peoples player may discard a follower instead". But always giving the option to prevent those massive wounds.

Another important point is limit. If no option is given to the FP player, then "(limit once)" or "(limit twice)" should be established. The way it is by now, the Shadow Archers are clearly overpowered. And a simple Mithril Coat just won't stop them...


- Saruman: "Skirmish: Exert Saruman to make a minion strength -2" is not enough to counter the points I mentioned. +2 strength to Galadriel equals to -4 to a minion trying to overwhelm her. And the damage bonus will be much necessary... I hope "Skirmish: Exert Saruman to make a Wise character strength +2 and damage +1" is not too long, and it leaves some room to the lore text.


- Narya: It's true that each Vitality +1 Ring of Power provides only one ability, but the single ability in each of those Rings, either passive or active may be used at any site, while the skill of your version of Narya is useful only when moving to site 5. That's my point here, it should be a spiritual power enhancer instead of only a device to keep along with the Company...

The "Into Dark Tunnels" ability proposed is meant to represent an enhancement to the reach of Gandalf's willpower: he might strain himself to push his actions even further, be it calling reinforcements (Eagles Are Coming, Former Herald or A Wizard Is Never Late), relieving the heart of a "fellow conspirator" (He Gives Me Courage), struggling against an evil spirit (Take Up Arms or Gathering of the Three Rings) or plainly harming the evil forces directly (Dawn Take You All!). But note the high cost of that ability (2 exertions), that makes hard to pull once again those events that require one exertion (Eagles Are Coming), and those that need two exertions are almost impossible to reinforce (to play Dawn Take You All, recover it, and play it again you would need 6 exertions: fully healed Gandalf + Narya, + 2x Lore of Imladris)...

The way the Rings of Power (and the Palantiri) rendered their strongest powers to their bearers was precisely that way: straining your spirit towards domination of the Ring or Palantir (just like an Iron Mace or a War Hammer gives its battle strenght only to those that can carry it). Besides Denethor and Aragorn, very few Men had the strength to force those devices to their will, as did the spirit of a Maia, a High-Elf or a stubborn Dwarf. Frodo only once used a slight part of The One's power to tame Smeagol; Halflings didn't have intentions to dominate power nor persons but that was actually his salvation... and the salvation of the whole Middle-Earth.

It's a real shame Decipher didn't use the ability of Into Dark Tunnels in a support card (ally, artifact/possession, condition...). As an event, recycling another event means the problem of clogging the hand. And most Gandalf events require exertions, so as an event it should have said "spot Gandalf" or "exert Gandalf" once...

[Durin's Heir]

- Oakenshield: The way it is depicted in both the 1st movie and the books, the Oakenshield was a close fighting shield meant to stop the strikes of Thorin's foes. I don't see the archery reduction as something that must be present in it, and if that were the case, it shouldn't replace the close fighting part. Both the strength denial to minions and the response action are part of that concept...

- Eagles Are Coming: The players think that in Skirmish, the event will be far too powerful. I change the text.

It won't be more powerful than Take Up Arms which gives -3 to a minion; this one would add +2 with Beorn or +1 with Gwaihir. It costs an exertion by the way. Beorn can recover a skirmish event like Take Up Arms or Eagles Are Coming if he wins his skirmish, but as it says "You may attach a follower from your support area to a companion", only Gwaihir might be used by more than 1 companion per site; Beorn won't return to the support area. The main threat is cancelling additional skirmishes against Wargriders, but remember this is an event and not a support area card, AND Wargriders are fierce.

- Beorn: Though Beorn's text won't be saturated by adding "Bearer is damage +1", I agree he might be too powerful that way. I still believe he should have the chance to crush his enemies, so the damage bonus might be added as optative: "Each time bearer wins a skirmish, you may take a card from your dicard pile into hand or wound each minion in that skirmish".

- Baïn: I don't know if healing Bard is so important to the Esgaroth Pack, I'd have to playtest it but I don't have the chance to do so . I understand he must be spotted to heal The Master or allow the Volunteers to fight (and that way Narzug will destroy the culture by killing him). But Esgaroth Volunteers exert themselves to be able to fight, and Baïn exerts to allow his father. The Master can heal Bard but no one heals the Volunteers nor Baïn, that was my point to make Baïn heal any Dale man. Might even exclude The Master. "At the start of each of your turns, you may heal a [Dale] man". "(except The Master)"?



EDIT: A new idea for Saruman's Skirmish ability: "Skirmish: Exert Saruman to make a Wise character strength +2 and exert a or minion". In case you don't want a damage bonus against any minion (Trolls, Smaug, wargriders...), this does more or less the same damage but only against the forces of Dol Guldur (different only in the case Gandalf is facing more than 1 Dol Guldur minion)...

 - Dwarven Spear: I don't know how this Dwarven Spear behaved during the last playtest. But I think the strength +1 bonus should not apply only against a Wargrider, but too if bearer is at a battleground. In the movie, it looked as a very versatile weapon in group fighting, either to form a defensive phalanx, or to press against the enemy. If it doesn't end being overpowered, I'd change it to "While at a battleground or skirmishing a mounted minion, bearer is strength +1". That way it would punish a bit any Shadow using and inducing the battleground keyword, just like Dwarven Axe takes some advantage from Smaug's cards to turn a mountain the current site...

[-Enola-]

Ok I just change most of the cards with your ideas . Thank you!

- Saruman : His test is long enough, I try to make it short. This card seems really powerful now.
- Narya : I put a more simple and short-text ability.
- Mithril Coat : It's not the definitive Shadow Archery. I also think it is too powerful now.
- Oakenshield : I make it simpler and still powerful.
- Dwarven Spear : The card is really powerful, there is no need to add another strength bonus.

[Durin's Heir]

- Eagles Are Coming as a Skirmish event makes much more sense than "Maneuver or Skirmish".
- Narya's new passive skill looks good and not overpowered.
- Dwarven Spear: You are right, it's very powerful. Leave it as it is.
- Beorn . "Wound a minion bearer is skirmishing" is the same but a bit longer than "wound a minion in that skirmish".
- Baïn: "Except The Master". . That was the guy who hit and jailed his father...


- Burglar's Contract seems more equilibrated now with a fixed low strength pump, and a limit. But given its strength pump is now fixed, it might give +1 strength to Bilbo. Or some resistance bonus.


- Oakenshield: It's powerful but a mere Dwarven Bracers. I know the Bracers are a powerful card, but the Oakenshield should have a more epic flavour. It doesn't need to have the skill of Shield of Boromir, but should have something to make him fight a bit better. Something short like "Skirmish: Exert Thorin or play a event to make him strength +1". That's an event or exertion dependant skill, that should give a strong epic flavor. I mean, both exertions and fighting events are good examples of willpower...
- Mithril Coat: A previous version denied all damage bonuses, and that doesn't make sense with Smaug. I'd change the first skill to "The minion archery total is -1 and minions skirmishing Bilbo lose all damage bonuses from weapons". As far as it's possible. The second skill offers enough overwhelming protection I guess.
- Saruman: I'm glad there's a skirmish ability to add strength to Wise characters. I still believe the damage will be necessary, but all the debate about details for the White Council will need the Nazgul Pack to be defined first. I believe that should be the next step, and then to define the Bolg Archery Pack...

[dmaz]

Looking great guys

I've been too busy as of late to dive in with the development, but it's been fun following it. Great to see a lot of good minds on the development team!

Keep up the good work!

[Durin's Heir]

Thank you my dear fellow! I believe we are bent on to create something worthy of being played... and remembered . I'm glad you like the way it has been going.

If you have an idea to contribute, I'd be glad to hear it. And our friend Enola would be even happier.

[-Enola-]

Thank you dmaz. Sure, as Durin's Heir said, it will be a pleasure to work with you .