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Author Topic: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game  (Read 266531 times)

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January 08, 2015, 07:20:03 PM
Reply #30

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2015, 07:20:03 PM »
First, the pending issues... then the New Shadow cultures.

1) Pending Issues:
I replace the text with this one, your sentence is a bit too long to be perfectly clear. I put it in two parts. Tell me what you think about it. (I forgot the battleground keyword, which will be added).

http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Add/Watchful Orc.png
Good! That means there will be minions and Shadow cards festing in battlegrounds. I believe Azog's and Bolg's Besiegers should take profit from battlegrounds. About them, I found this line in LOTR wiki: "... Azog's Orc army from Dol Guldur, and Bolg's Orc army from Gundabad." In respect of the 5 armies, in the movie version. http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

Your version is much better than mine. It's far more clear, and the costly part should be the replacing of the current site, not the keyword addition. Great!

The Goblin Footman has always been able to play back the Troll Knife ;). The artifact part is new, but I don't know if it's very thematic.
If Goblin Footman's culture was Gundabad or Sauron, it would be more thematic. But who cares, it's very close to that!

It was 16 before and it was really easy to play him for 4 at site 8.
We have to test it, I think we will let him at 16, it's good.
Didn't know his cost was sometimes only [4]... But if we are trying to make him appear several times instead of just in site 8, he will have less characters and followers to spot, AND will be roaming. 16 looks good then.

No sorry, I prefer to keep the same abilities than in LOTR even if he is younger. Like Bilbo, Galadriel, ...
There are 2 characters here that appear too in LOTR TCG, which have different attributes: Sauron (Strength 24, Vitality 5, fierce, dmg+2) and Glóin (strength 5 and no dmg, to 6 dmg+1). The case of Sauron is quite self-explanatory and can't be considered a good example. But Glóin's base strength and damage are better here.

I don't think it's so much thematic. There is other way to play Thrain, the site 1 in the Booster pack or King Under the Mountain if there is also the Dain pack.
That's right, he can be played with Bilbo's Kitchen. But the map and the key appear from the start in both movie and book. That's why I think it would be a good idea to have something within his pack to play him early...

The Dain pack won't coincide often with Thráin's. 2 in 7 if there are 4 players, 4 in 7 if are 8.

I prefer to keep all the Ring with only a Vitality +1. It's more coherent ^^.
The problem I see is there's only a random FP pack if 2 players, well, play. If it happens to be Thráin's, there won't be weapons for any dwarf but Thorin, and that leaves me with a sensation of low power and protection. And Thráin can't even play Orcrist from draw deck... So I believe the Ring must add a little strength. Though the Rings didn't made dwarven bearers live longer nor be invisible, alike men they made them much stronger, vigorous and keen minded...

The Thráin Pack will hardly meet Dain's or Thorin's packs, the chances are very low. And it will require 4 or more players... Little to no chances of dwarven weapons to protect the company. That's all I mean.

Thror's Key - "Heal a Dwarf if you play a mountain"...

Ok thank you, I just change it ^^.
Such a great scene, Thorin gets healed by Gandalf and wakes to see his distant home and heirloom. I had to withhold my tears the first time I watched it ^^.

I would love to see a Gandalf healing spell included, but I know the slots are all filled in the current packs. :(

Right. But I want to keep cards simpler as possible. I propose the following

- 2x The Eagles Are Coming : [Gandalf] Cost (2). Event. Spell.
Maneuver: Exert a [Gandalf] ally to allow that ally to participate in archery fire and skirmishes until the regroup phase.
Skirmish: Exert Gandalf to play a [Gandalf] follower from your draw deck or discard pile and attach it to a Dwarf companion (without paying the aid cost).
Much better! =D> =D> =D> Now Radagast can fight! And another mechanism for Saruman, in case the White Council Pack meets the Wizard one.

Thank you for all your ideas, they are great!!
You are welcome my friend!


2) The Necromancer [Sauron] culture.

We have to understand this is a subpack of the Beatdown Pack, and though it may interact with subpacks of other Beatdown or Swarm Packs (cheers to that!), the Beatdown Pack must rely solely on itself and the Main Deck... Beatdown here is the concept: strong minions (fixed or pumped), with attributes like damage bonus or fierce, and tricks like grinding, ambushing, corrupting, discarding...

Shadow Sauron (10 cards):
- 3x • Sauron: Cost (3). [Sauron] Minion. Maïa. Site 5. Strength 15, Vitality 4. Sauron may not take wounds during the archery phase and may not be assigned to a skirmish. Orcs are fierce. Assignment: Exert Sauron to assign another minion to a [Dwarven] ccompanion, [Gandalf] character or [Elven] ally. That character may exert to prevent this.
- 2x • Ring of Thrór, Last of the Seven Rings: Cost (2). [Sauron] Artifact • Ring. Vitality +1. Bearer must be Sauron. When you play this artifact take up to 2 minions from your discard pile into hand. Skirmish: Exert Sauron to make a minion strength +2 (or +3 if you cannot spot Gandalf).
Sauron concretely fights twice in the movies, and threatens to fight Radagast at the first... I firmly believe he must be able to fight, but the Ring of Thrór should be part of his new embodiment.

[4] • Sauron, The Necromancer [Sauron].
Minion • Maia.
Strength: 15 Vitality 4. Site 5.
Sauron may not be assigned to a skirmish.
Wizard and Elf allies may participate in skirmishes. Orcs are fierce and strength +1.
Assignment: Exert Sauron to assign another minion to an elegible character (except Bilbo). That character may exert to prevent this.

Removed the archery protection, directed archery is few here and he might protect other minions like Saruman, Rabble-Rouser does. And to save some card room ;). The skirmish prevention must be the first line, just like Saruman, in order to make the Ring of Thrór allow Sauron to fight the way Saruman's Staff does.
"Orcs are strength +1" is there to make those small, unarmed, unmounted Orcs be a challenge to Thorin's Company and justify the fierce addition (without any other Swarm or Beatdown Pack, the Orcs in the Main Deck have no possession to aid them). Besides, it justifies the cost increase of +1 (now costs 4, like Saruman SotE but roams a bit more).
Removed the [Gandalf] character and [Elven] ally part in the assignment ability (because it's under control of solely the Shadow player, and thus only Gandalf will be assigned by him/her in order to swarm or beatdown the Dwarves), and replaced that part with a non-ability skill that allows Wizards and [Elven] allies to paticipate (by any player).
Preserved the "assign another minion", as the Ring of Thrór will make him fight and that assignment should be in the hands of the FP player...

[3] • Ring of Thrór, Last of the Seven Rings [Sauron]
Artifact • Ring.
Vitality +1.
Bearer must be Sauron. He is fierce and the first sentence of his game text doesn't apply.
When you play this artifact, take up to 2 minions from your discard pile into hand.
Skirmish: Exert Sauron to make a minion strength +2 (or +3 if you cannot spot Gandalf) (limit once per skirmish).

Sauron fights, as a 15 str 5 vit fierce monster, costing 2 cards and [7]. No damage +1, because of his strenght potential (he's like Lord of Angmar). He might assign strong FP guys to fight small creatures, in order to overwhelm himself the little ones. The skirmish ability is limited to only once, otherwise he will concentrate his vitality to overwhelm Thorin, Gandy or Bilbo. Each surviving minion (except Gollum) will fight again for a beatdown, including him, as Orcs are now fierce and Trolls, Spiders and Nazgul (and Wargs) are naturally fierce. Besides, Danger Wrapped in Shadow will turn each orkish skirmish very dangerous.

If the FP player has the Ring of Thrór, you will need to kill/discard/capture in jail it's bearer, or discard the Ring directly with Smaug's Fury of the Dragon.

- 2x Jail: Cost (1). [Sauron] Condition • Support area. To play, spot a [Sauron] card. No more than one companion can be stacked here. Response: If a companion is about to be discarded or loses a fierce skirmish, stack him on this condition.
Jail's concept is a very good one! But there are some points I'd like to change...
There are too few Sauron cards per player (10 divided in the total number of players...), so that spotting requirement must be widen to [Wraith] cards at least (maybe Spider too); Dol Guldur is the idea here. The stacking after a fierce skirmish doesn't make sense unless the companion is exhausted; I like the idea but 'd change that part to a regroup action depending on an unique minion (a captain, commander, leader... someone with authority).

[1] Jail [Sauron]
Condition • Support area.
To play, spot a [Sauron] or [Wraith] card. No more than one card can be stacked here. Another copy of a companion stacked here may not be played.
Response: If a companion is about to be discarded, stack him on this condition instead.
Regroup: Exert an unique minion (except Smaug) to stack an exhausted companion here (except Bilbo).

I don't know if the specification of Bilbo is necessary. The sentence in bold makes sense only if this Hobbit Draft Game is available in Gemp, in which case would be converted into a TCG. With possibility of multiple copies of a companion.

- 3x Danger Wrapped in Shadows: Cost (2). [Sauron] Condition • Support area. At the start of your Shadow phase, if you cannot spot Gandalf, you may take in hand a [Sauron] card from your discard pile. Skirmish: Remove (2) to make an Orc strength +2 (+3 if you cannot spot Gandalf).
"You may take into hand". Great text! I'd change the "remove [2]" to remove [3], like Guard Commander. I once made a Guard Commander strength +20 at site 3 (and of course Aragorn died); the Shadow player might play a single Orc in order to overwhelm a companion of FP player's choice with the remaining twilight. Unless a limit is added, something like "limit once per each minion you can spot". A Watchful Orc + Sauron to assign it = twice only. And I think it should help anyone under Sauron's command (and Sauron himself). It's not an unique condition, so the limit will be almost meaningless if there are 2 copies or more...

[2] Danger Wrapped in Shadows [Sauron]
Condition • Support area.
If you cannot spot Gandalf, at the start of your Shadow phase you may take into hand a [Sauron] card from your discard pile.
Skirmish: Remove [3] to make a minion (except Smaug) strength +2 (or +3 if you cannot spot Gandalf); limit once per each minion you can spot.

That limit is meant to work inside the same skirmish... "A limit does not span multiple phases. Trust Me As You Once Did could be used for +3 in each of two or more separate skirmish phases during the same turn."
http://lotrtcgwiki.com/wiki/comprehensive_rules_4-0

The idea I try to depict is a Beatdwon by means of multiple, fierce and sometimes directed skirmishes as first resource. And overwhelming as a second.

That's all about the Sauron Culture. I still have things to say about the Smaug and Nazgul Cultures...
« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 08:23:30 PM by Durin's Heir »
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”  - Malcolm X

January 08, 2015, 10:48:37 PM
Reply #31

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2015, 10:48:37 PM »
3) The Smaug (Non)Culture:

Shadow Smaug (15 cards):
- 2x • The Arkenstone, King's Jewel: Cost (2). [No Culture] Artifact. Strength +2. To play spot Smaug, if you can spot The Arkenstone, discard it. Plays on Bilbo. Each character of a different culture than bearer's is strength -2. Bilbo, Bard and Thorin gain this ability: "Maneuver: Add 2 doubts to transfer the Arkenstone to this character."
Still lacks the "Each character of a different culture than bearer's is strength -2 (except [Gandalf])". Otherwise, great!

- 4x Smaug's Awakening: Cost (3). [No culture] Condition • Support area. To play, discard 4 cards from hand. Shadow: Remove a doubt to make each site on the adventure path a mountain until the end of the turn. Shadow: Play Smaug at twilight cost -3 from your draw deck or discard pile, he is strength -3 and damage -1 until the regroup phase.
"To play, discard 4 cards from hand." This card might be played to cycle hand, besides playing Smaug. :up:
"Shadow: Remove a doubt to make each site... gain mountain until the end of the turn."

- 3x • Fury of the Dragon: Cost (2). [No culture] Condition • Support area. Each time Smaug kills a character in a skirmish, you may add a doubt and exert a companion. Shadow: Remove two doubts to discard a [Dwarven] artifact.
I really believe this one should make Dale men fight.

The title might be changed to "Wrath of the Dragon", quoting Old Bilbo's words at An Unexpected Journey: "Thranduil would not risk the lives of his kin against the Wrath of the Dragon". Or Thranduil's when talking to Thorin: "Do not talk to me of Dragon fire. I know its Wrath and Ruin".

[2]Wrath of the Dragon. [No culture]
Condition • Support area.
If you can spot Smaug, [Dale] allies may participate in archery fire and skirmishes.
Each time Smaug kills the character he is skirmishing, add a doubt and exert a companion (or add 2 doubts and wound 2 non- [Shire] characters if it was a [Dale] ally).
Shadow: Remove 3 doubts to discard a [Dwarven] artifact.
Lore: "What have we done?" or "Revenge?! Revenge?! I will show you revenge!"

3 doubts instead. Or "Remove 2 doubts and exert Smaug". Otherwise this card will discard over and over again [Dwarven] Artifacts, as 2 doubts aren't too hard to pile up (and Orcrist might be the difference between Smaug defeated and 2 dead FP characters)... This card adds doubts too. Smaug might be assigned to Dale men with Sauron's assignment ability (as Dale men are now "elegible characters"). To remove those pesky men from the board, and to add doubts and wound characters as a mere side effect... Oh really what have we done! You can assign Smaug to 2 Dale men in order to add 4 doubts!

The specification of "the character he is skirmishing" is there to prevent that ridiculous wheel of wounds of Promise Keeping + They Stole It + Threats, if Smaug kills a Dale character fighting him and then wounds another one who's exhausted.

- 3x Twisted Gold of Dragon: Cost (0). [No culture] Condition • Support area. Smaug's twilight cost is -2. Shadow: Remove a doubt and discard a minion from play to make each site on the adventure path a mountain until the end of the turn. Shadow: Discard 2 Orcs from play to play Smaug from your draw deck or discard pile.
This version seems a bit redundant, in respect of Smaug's Awakening... It's good for recurrence to play Smaug (and this one doesn't reduce his strenght and damage), but might be a bit better. Just add this at the end: "Regroup: Spot a [Dwarven] artifact and discard this condition to add a doubt." To reflect the division the gold hoard caused amongst the Free Peoples. Emeralds of Girion, FP Arkenstone, Orcrist, FP Ring of Thrór, Mithril Coat... all are [Dwarven] artifacts.

- 3x Dissension: Cost (3). [No culture] Event - Skirmish or Regroup. You may exert Smaug twice to play this event from your discard pile. Skirmish: Spot X doubts to make a Dwarf companion strength -X. Regroup: Exert Smaug to add a doubt.
What a great turn sir! Now may be played from discard in either Regroup or Skirmish phase by exerting Smaug twice. Excellent! Reminds me of Gleaming In the Snow...

This Smaug subpack ends up as both a Beatdown and a Corruption subpack. Marvelous!

I still owe you the revision of the Nazgul Shadow... (and the Archery Shadow too...)
But it's a bit too late here...  :wuh?:   :-Z
« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 08:24:17 PM by Durin's Heir »
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”  - Malcolm X

January 10, 2015, 02:55:03 PM
Reply #32

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2015, 02:55:03 PM »
4) The Nazgul [Wraith] Culture:

I like most of these cards, but must say there are some general flaws which need to be corrected:

1. The twilight cost is too high for minions with a site number of 5. It's the same they have in LOTR TCG (where they stop roaming at 3 and strike the sooner the better). Strength and cost relation must be compensated, either by increasing strength or by reducing twilight cost. And increasing the strength might be a bad idea for many Nazgul, as they would overwhelm too easily.

2. There's a very low total number of cards for the culture. Supposedly it's 15, but divided in 2 or 4 as an average, if respectively there are 2 or 4 players. So each minion must be very important by itself, or very low costed for a moderately strong impact. And the cost of discarding a [Wraith] card to play another one can't be a good mechansims, moreover if those Nazgul are designed to collaborate with each other...

The way the Nine Ringwraiths are depicted in the Battle of the Five Armies is different than in the LOTR trilogy: when one gets defeated, he immediatly reappears. Over and over again... Which inspires a possible solution.

The solution I see consists of 2 parts:
1. Reduce the cost of each Nazgul by 2, preserving the other attributes. Therefore each will cost while roaming the same as their Site 3 counterparts, but since Site 5 will be much more twilight efficient and menacing. Like Uruks past 5...
2. Add a sentence to reflect that reappearing attribute they show in the movie. "You may remove [2] to play this minion from your discard pile." That therefore reduces the high impact of low [Wraith] card count in the deck, and makes them "resurrect" each time they need... And when they "resurrect", they have the same cost as their LOTR site 3 counterparts...

There's another sentence the Nazgul should have, at least the most important of them: "[Gandalf] and [Elven] allies may participate in skirmishes."

Here's a good quality video of the Battle at Dol Guldur:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5rv2ksepsA
« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 08:24:31 PM by Durin's Heir »
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”  - Malcolm X

January 10, 2015, 11:55:26 PM
Reply #33

-Enola-

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2015, 11:55:26 PM »
1) Pending Issues:

That's right, he can be played with Bilbo's Kitchen. But the map and the key appear from the start in both movie and book. That's why I think it would be a good idea to have something within his pack to play him early...

The Dain pack won't coincide often with Thráin's. 2 in 7 if there are 4 players, 4 in 7 if are 8.

Ok I just change :

Thrór's Heirlooms : Cost (3) [Dwarven] Event. Regroup: Exert a Dwarf companion to play Thráin, a [Dwarven] possession or [Dwarven] artifact from your draw deck or discard pile.

If it happens to be Thráin's, there won't be weapons for any dwarf but Thorin, and that leaves me with a sensation of low power and protection.

All followers act as permanent boosts, since they can be transfered to any companion. I remove the damage +1 ability (it would be too much) :

• Ring of Thrór : Cost (0). [Dwarven] Artifact • Ring. Vitality +1. Bearer must be a Dwarf companion. Bearer is strength +1 for each [Dwarven] possession and [Dwarven] artifact in your discard pile (limit +3). Maneuver: Take a [Dwarven] event into hand from your discard pile. Discard this artifact.

I would love to see a Gandalf healing spell included, but I know the slots are all filled in the current packs.

I just made a modification on Galadriel to add some healing ability.

• Galadriel : Cost (3). Ally. Elf. Home 3. Strength 3, vitality 3. At the start of each of your turns, you may heal Gandalf. Skirmish: Exert Galadriel and discard a Shadow card from hand to make a minion skirmishing strength -3 (or -6 if Galadriel or a Wizard is skirmishing that minion).
Hobbit Draft Game : http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr

January 11, 2015, 12:38:41 AM
Reply #34

-Enola-

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2015, 12:38:41 AM »
2) The Necromancer culture.

Some important points of the game are the following:
- simplicition of the cards, no more than 2 sentences of abilities (like in LOTR TCG)
- FOTR rules (except followers)
- interaction with the main deck
- counter-draft
- exhaustive theme covering all the movies and the book (if able)


I don't think there is a need of strength +1 for the Orcs as the [Isengard] Orcs in FOTR with Saruman assigning the Orcs. The "eligible" word is too confused, it was used in LOTR TCG only for bearing a possession. We have to cut one sentence in your text. I change a bit Sauron

• Sauron: Cost (4). [Sauron] Minion. Maïa. Site 5. Strength 15, Vitality 4. Sauron may not be assigned to a skirmish. Minions are fierce. Assignment: Exert Sauron to assign another minion to a [Dwarven] companion, [Gandalf] character or [Elven] ally. That character may exert to prevent this.

The text of the Ring is too long. There are too much sentences. We will keep only 2 sentences. I propose this:

• Ring of Thrór, Last of the Seven Rings: Cost (3). [Sauron] Artifact • Ring. Vitality +1. Bearer must be Sauron. When you play this artifact take up to 2 minions from your discard pile into hand. Maneuver: Make the first sentence of Sauron's game text not apply until the regroup phase.

There is only one copy of each companion in the game. Jail is also too complicated, can we just change the "loses fierce skirmish" by another response ?

I also change a bit the last card:

Danger Wrapped in Shadows: Cost (2). [Sauron] Condition • Support area. At the start of your Shadow phase, if you cannot spot Gandalf, you may take in hand a [Sauron] card from your discard pile. Skirmish: Remove (3) to make a minion (except Smaug) strength +2 (limit +4).
Hobbit Draft Game : http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr

January 12, 2015, 10:53:38 AM
Reply #35

-Enola-

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2015, 10:53:38 AM »
3) The Smaug (Non)Culture:

Ok for "Each character of a different culture than bearer's is strength -2 (except [Gandalf])". I remove the part :" if you can spot the Arkenstone, discard it", there are other ways to discard the Arkenstone.

Ok for Wrath of the Dragon, good point! But the text is now too long. I mix two of your proposed cards.

• Wrath of the Dragon: Cost (2). [No culture] Condition • Support area. Each time Smaug kills a character in a skirmish, you may add a doubt and exert a companion. Shadow: Remove two doubts and exert Smaug to discard a [Dwarven] artifact.

Twisted Gold of Dragon: Cost (0). [No culture] Condition • Support area. Smaug's twilight cost is -2. If you can spot Smaug, [Dale] allies may participate in archery fire and skirimishes. Shadow: Discard 2 Orcs from play to play Smaug from your draw deck or discard pile.

Thank you.
Hobbit Draft Game : http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr

January 12, 2015, 09:41:01 PM
Reply #36

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2015, 09:41:01 PM »
Some important points of the game are the following:
- simplicition of the cards, no more than 2 sentences of abilities (like in LOTR TCG)
- FOTR rules (except followers)
- interaction with the main deck
- counter-draft
- exhaustive theme covering all the movies and the book (if able)
"simplicition of the cards, no more than 2 sentences of abilities (like in LOTR TCG)"

There are some cards with more than 2 sentences, like Aragorn, Defender of Free Peoples, or The Balrog, Terror of Flame and Shadow. Or Flame of Udun (with 2 paragraphs but 3 sentences)... but I agree with the simplicity. And agree with everything else.

I confess my card ideas often are too complicated and too long, so I'll try to make them shorter and simpler. But can't promise I'll achive that every time, so you will have to equilibrate that flaw of mine...

The "eligible" word is too confused, it was used in LOTR TCG only for bearing a possession. We have to cut one sentence in your text. I change a bit Sauron.

• Sauron: Cost (4). [Sauron] Minion. Maïa. Site 5. Strength 15, Vitality 4. Sauron may not be assigned to a skirmish. Minions are fierce. Assignment: Exert Sauron to assign another minion to a [Dwarven] companion, [Gandalf] character or [Elven] ally. That character may exert to prevent this.
It still worries me the fact Sauron ables [Gandalf] and [Elven] allies to be assigned by only the Shadow player. Which means it just won't happen (in order to kill companions instead), unless that ally is so unbalancing or annoying that he/she deserves to be killed (like Elrond being the only Elf, healing Dale men with Emeralds of Girion; or Elrond healing the fellowship each turn).

But there is another way of allowing the White Council to fight Sauron and the Nazgul: instead of being the Dol Guldur forces who spend card room for that ability, may be The Wise who use theirs. "This ally may be assigned to skirmish [Wraith] or [Sauron] minions". Usable by the FP player and by Sauron's text. You may replace "this ally" with the corresponding: Saruman, Galadriel, Radagast, Elrond.

Besides, that way The White Council wouldn't be able to fight Orcs or Spiders while spotting a Nazgul, but only that Nazgul...

I don't think there is a need of strength +1 for the Orcs as the [Isengard] Orcs in FOTR with Saruman assigning the Orcs.
I just thought it would be useful due to Dwalin, Balin, Thorin, Gandalf will easily defeat or kill those small unarmed, unmounted Orcs of the Main deck (the Beatdown Pack has not a single Orc). But if there's Danger Wrapped in Shadows on the board, that strength addition will be of less need. And Sauron assigning small minions to the big guys, and bigger Orcs to Bilbo and exhausted companions is enough a threat.

The "eligible" word is too confused, it was used in LOTR TCG only for bearing a possession.
That's true for card text, it has been used only for possession and condition transferring. But for rules, "eligible character" is sometimes used in rulebooks (see below). "Elegible character (except Bilbo)" is much shorter than "Dwarf companion, [Gandalf] character or [Elven] ally" for the exact same purpose (and more if Smaug and Twisted Gold of Dragon are on the board), and I really believe that card room may be used instead for great things. I don't see any problem with using that word...

"Eligible" word in rulebooks:

1) Ally: http://lotrtcgwiki.com/wiki/ally

"... If the fellowship is at an ally's home site (or if a card effect has allowed an ally to participate in skirmishes), that ally may be assigned to a skirmish in the same way that companions are assigned to skirmishes.

This doesn't mean that such an ally must take an archery wound or be assigned by the Free Peoples player to defend a skirmish, but that character is eligible to do so if the Free Peoples player so chooses."


2) Assignment Phase: http://lotrtcgwiki.com/wiki/comprehensive_rules_4-0

"If an assigned minion subsequently becomes unassigned as a result of a card's game text (e.g. a triggered ability), it is not a leftover minion and is not eligible to be assigned by the Shadow player."


The text of the Ring is too long. There are too much sentences. We will keep only 2 sentences. I propose this:

• Ring of Thrór, Last of the Seven Rings: Cost (3). [Sauron] Artifact • Ring. Vitality +1. Bearer must be Sauron. When you play this artifact take up to 2 minions from your discard pile into hand. Maneuver: Make the first sentence of Sauron's game text not apply until the regroup phase.
This one looks good! As the strength pumps rely now only in Danger Wrapped in Shadows, I'd change "take up to 2 minions" for "take up to 2 minions or conditions", to ensure the pump is always present to beatdown the Company. And conditions are the way the game represents resources, being Sauron the most resourceful of Tolkien's characters in the Second and Third Ages.

I don't think the maneuver ability should be optional. It must be optional with a mere 10 str Saruman + Staff without pumps, but here we are talking about a 15 str, 5 vit guy with Danger Wrapped... pumping him. Besides, Sauron was forced by Gandalf to fight when he wasn't ready, and later by the White Council. So I'd leave it as "Bearer must be Sauron. The first sentence of his game text does not apply", which is not optional, and is much shorter.

There is only one copy of each companion in the game. Jail is also too complicated, can we just change the "loses fierce skirmish" by another response ?
You are right, it's too complicated. Besides, as a regroup action Elrond might heal the companion and spoil the whole thing... Look at this version:

[1] Jail [Sauron]
Condition • Support area.
To play, spot a [Sauron] or [Wraith] card. No more than one card can be stacked here.
Response: If a companion is exhausted after losing a fierce skirmish (or if is about to be discarded), stack him on this condition.

Sauron turns every minion fierce, and fierce guys tend to exhaust more easily. So if the Shadow player can't kill a specific companion after skirmishes, can still get rid of him. Sauron's assignment ability might exhaust companions too, so if Jail is present, the FP player will need to think twice an exertion to prevent that assignment.

I also change a bit the last card:

Danger Wrapped in Shadows: Cost (2). [Sauron] Condition • Support area. At the start of your Shadow phase, if you cannot spot Gandalf, you may take in hand a [Sauron] card from your discard pile. Skirmish: Remove (3) to make a minion (except Smaug) strength +2 (limit +4).
Hmmm. This one is good. But might be improved a bit. The skill to take back a [Sauron] card should be broaden to "a [Sauron] or [Gundabad] card", as a player will have only 4 or 6 [Sauron] cards in the draft as average, and 1 of them will be this card if you want to use its text. It would represent better the fear the imprisoned Gandalf suffers when seeing the Orc Host (probably here that Host will be [Gundabad] and not [Sauron]).

Now this card is the only pump for the culture. The previous Ring of Thrór had the cost of exerting Sauron to pump. I'd add that cost as another option in this card: "Remove [3] or exert Sauron to make a minion (except Smaug) strength +2 (limit +4)".


I'd like to see a [Sauron] cultured mechanism to discard FP artifacts or possessions. Like when Sauron burned Gandalf's Staff, or something to discard the [Dwarven] Ring of Thrór. But I can't propose anything by now...
« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 08:25:32 PM by Durin's Heir »
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January 12, 2015, 10:18:23 PM
Reply #37

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2015, 10:18:23 PM »
Ok I just change :

Thrór's Heirlooms : Cost (3) [Dwarven] Event. Regroup: Exert a Dwarf companion to play Thráin, a [Dwarven] possession or [Dwarven] artifact from your draw deck or discard pile.
:up:

All followers act as permanent boosts, since they can be transfered to any companion. I remove the damage +1 ability (it would be too much) :

• Ring of Thrór : Cost (0). [Dwarven] Artifact • Ring. Vitality +1. Bearer must be a Dwarf companion. Bearer is strength +1 for each [Dwarven] possession and [Dwarven] artifact in your discard pile (limit +3). Maneuver: Take a [Dwarven] event into hand from your discard pile. Discard this artifact.
This version looks awesome! Vitality bonus, a hidden ace to pull any suitable event, and some surprisingly good strength addition (the more worn out the Company is, the more strength this Ring will add). Yes, a damage additon would be too much!

I just made a modification on Galadriel to add some healing ability.

• Galadriel : Cost (3). Ally. Elf. Home 3. Strength 3, vitality 3. At the start of each of your turns, you may heal Gandalf. Skirmish: Exert Galadriel and discard a Shadow card from hand to make a minion skirmishing strength -3 (or -6 if Galadriel or a Wizard is skirmishing that minion).

Great! I had the feeling the FP side was lacking some healing, even with Elrond in the Main Deck.
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January 12, 2015, 10:24:04 PM
Reply #38

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2015, 10:24:04 PM »
3) The Smaug (Non)Culture:

Ok for "Each character of a different culture than bearer's is strength -2 (except [Gandalf])". I remove the part :" if you can spot the Arkenstone, discard it", there are other ways to discard the Arkenstone.

We made a little mistake with "Each character..." It must be "Each companion or ally", otherwise The Shadow Arkenstone will weaken minions too.

Ok for Wrath of the Dragon, good point! But the text is now too long. I mix two of your proposed cards.

• Wrath of the Dragon: Cost (2). [No culture] Condition • Support area. Each time Smaug kills a character in a skirmish, you may add a doubt and exert a companion. Shadow: Remove two doubts and exert Smaug to discard a [Dwarven] artifact.

Twisted Gold of Dragon: Cost (0). [No culture] Condition • Support area. Smaug's twilight cost is -2. If you can spot Smaug, [Dale] allies may participate in archery fire and skirmishes. Shadow: Discard 2 Orcs from play to play Smaug from your draw deck or discard pile.

Thank you.

They lack the mountain keyword additon to sites... Besides that, MAGNIFICENT!

Might be in Twisted Gold: "Smaug's twilight cost is -2 and each site on the adventure path is a mountain".
« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 08:25:53 PM by Durin's Heir »
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January 13, 2015, 02:26:25 AM
Reply #39

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2015, 02:26:25 AM »
Thank you for your comments. I just made some quick changes on the Smaug and Sauron Shadows. Sauron can now fight everytime.
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January 14, 2015, 03:48:26 PM
Reply #40

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2015, 03:48:26 PM »
Jail looks great. I was thinking about the issue with 1x copy per companion... There's a simple solution if this game is going to be played in Gemp: EVERY companion can be added to the R-list. Only 1 copy per deck.

I like the fact Sauron can't discard the [Dwarven] Ring of Thrór to play the [Sauron] version, as he can still try to get rid of it by assigning its bearer to a serious threat (like Smaug or the Witch King). Or with Wrath of the Dragon.

Now the Ring of Thrór is much more threatening in Sauron's hand! The artifact discarding ability is much better than a simple pump. Nonetheless, it can't discard a Wizard Staff borne by Gandy as it only discards artifacts (and can discard Emeralds of Girion or the [Dwarven] Arkenstone). What if we change it to a Skirmish action? "Skirmish: Exert Sauron twice to discard a card borne by another character in his skirmish."

That way, it would represent better the fight between Sauron and Gandalf (and it wouldn't discard artifacts in the support area). And would turn the assignment of Sauron far more dangerous to the FP player...
« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 08:26:11 PM by Durin's Heir »
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January 14, 2015, 06:32:00 PM
Reply #41

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2015, 06:32:00 PM »
I noticed an issue with Goblin Footman, though not necessarily a problem. He plays items from discard pile on minions. And the main deck has not a single item, so he must work with Booster Packs.

The 1st Swarm Pack provides the Goblin Scimitar, while the 1st Beatdown Pack is more prolific: there are 3 mounts for Orcs and the Troll Knives. The new Swarm Pack will have at least the Orkish Bow in the Archers sub-Pack, and might have weapons for Orcs and/or Trolls in the Besiegers sub-Pack.

The new Beatdown Pack has only 1 item bearable by a minion: the Ring of Thrór. Which unlike the previously mentioned items is unique, and must be borne by an unique minion with scarce copies.

Shall we include a Morgul Blade for the Nazgul? If so, what should be removed? If not, should we add or modify something in Goblin Footman's text to make him more useful in absense of bearable items?

As I said above, this is not necessarily a problem. But I think it might be an opportunity.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 03:42:57 PM by Durin's Heir »
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January 16, 2015, 04:20:24 AM
Reply #42

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2015, 04:20:24 AM »
4) The Nazgul [Wraith] Culture:

You haven't said anything yet about the ideas to modify the way the Nazgul culture works. That's OK, take your time my friend ;).

In the meantime, I will proceed to comment each Nazgul and suggest some changes, including the ideas depicted in the previous post about the [Wraith] culture. Those are:

1. Their twilight cost should be -2, given their site number is +2. Otherwise will arrive too late to the party.
2. An ability to "reappear" from discard pile, just like in the movie at Dol Guldur.
3. Some key Nazgul must allow the White Council to participate in skirmishes: "[Gandalf] and [Elven] allies may be assigned to skirmish [Wraith] minions." Only [Wraith], as the sole [Sauron] minion ables the Council to fight him.
4. [Wraith] and [Sauron] cultures must share some costs and benefits, given the shortage of cards of those cultures each player will have.
5. Therefore, the cost of discarding a [Wraith] card to play a Nazgul (Witch, Toldea) should be removed.

Points 2 and 3 will make the card space somewhat scarce :(... But point 3 doesn't need to be in every Nazgul's text.

If points 1 and 2 are used, the mechanisms for shuffling [Wraith] cards (minions, there is nothing else) back to the draw deck won't be of much necessity, and even might be counterproductive, because in the latter game the Shadow player will have plenty of minions in discard pile and probably will play them better from there, having to take care only of the use of twilight. That skill requires removing [2] to replay a Nazgul, so twilight addition and/or cost reduction would be much more useful than recycling [Wraith] cards back to the draw deck.

By the way, Nazgul won't have to worry about decking out ;). Using the previous point, we shouldn't give too much emphasis on mechanisms to shuffle back cards, and in those cases must allow to shuffle back any Shadow card, no matter what culture. In most cases that card space might be used for simpler yet more powerful things...


For inspiration purposes, here's a better video than the previous, of the Battle at Dol Guldur...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LahLu_rni34

- 2x • The Witch-King, Revived: Cost (8). [Wraith] minion. Nazgul. Site 5. Strength 14, Vitality 4. Fierce. To play, discard a [Wraith] card from hand. The twilight cost of each other Nazgûl is -2. Skirmish: Discard two cards from hand to make a minion damage +1.
The skiimish ability is a bit overpowered: play the Witch King and empty you hand to make him damage +3. But the effect is indeed a very good idea. I'd change it to "Discard 2 Shadow cards from hand...".

The cost of discarding a [Wraith] card is just inviable, so was removed. The twilight reduction of 2 to everyone else is unnecesary if we use the idea depicted in point 1, so was removed too.

[6] • The Witch-King, Revived [Wraith]
Minion • Nazgul
Strength: 14  Vitality: 4  Site: 5
Fierce. You may remove [2] to play this minion from your discard pile.
[Gandalf] and [Elven] allies may be assigned to skirmish [Wraith] minions.
Skirmish: Discard two Shadow cards from hand to make a minion damage +1.

- 2x • Ulaire Toldea, Revived: Cost (6). [Wraith] minion. Nazgul. Site 5. Strength 12, Vitality 3. Fierce. To play, discard a [Wraith] card from hand. The twilight cost of each other Nazgûl is -2. Skirmish: Spot an Orc and remove (2) to make a minion strength +3.
I wonder if this Skirmish action can remain unfolded. It's an improved form of Danger Wrapped in Shadows and that's a good thing, but would be too easy to overwhelm a companion if this is not limited. I'd limit its use to only once per skirmish, due to it will pile up with Danger Wrapped and that way you can sum up to +7 strength to a single minion. And given the strength of some beasts like Sauron and the Witch King, overwhelmings would be somewhat easy...

There's a worrisome unbalance of strenght pumps between Shadow and FP. In respect of skirmish abilities, the FP have Glóin (dangerous), Galadriel (limited to 2 exertions) and Burglar's Contract, while the Shadow side will have Danger Wrapped in Shadows and Ulaire Toldea, which are easy to pay and pile up...

Toldea can do a really strong teamwork with the Witch King.

[4] • Ulaire Toldea, Revived [Wraith]
Minion • Nazgul
Strength: 12  Vitality: 3  Site: 5
Fierce. You may remove [2] to play this minion from your discard pile.
[Gandalf] and [Elven] allies may be assigned to skirmish [Wraith] minions.
Skirmish: Spot an Orc and remove [2] to make a minion strength +3 (limit once per skirmish).

- 2x • Ulaire Attea, Revived: Cost (6). [Wraith] minion. Nazgul. Site 5. Strength 12, Vitality 3. Fierce. Shadow : discard a [Wraith] card from hand to add (2). Regroup: Exert your Orc and discard a [Wraith]? card from hand to discard an [Gandalf] or [Elven] ally.
When Radagast found the Morgul Blade, he fought a Nazgul presumed to be the Witch King. But the crown of that Nazgul was actually Khamul's (Ulaire Attea)... I believe it was a mistake from Weta Workshop and Peter Jackson.

Good text on this Nazgul. If this guy threatens the White Council, they must be able to fight! Which causes a problem with card room :(. I'd rather remove the Shadow abiity than the Regroup one; adding twilight is important but not as much given the twilight reduction depicted in point 1. Anyway, I'd use that Shadow ability with another Nazgul...

Discarding a [Wraith] card is too heavy a cost, but can be broaden to other pertinent cultures: Sauron, and perhaps Spider.

[4] • Ulaire Attea, Revived [Wraith]
Minion • Nazgul
Strength 12  Vitality 3  Site 5.
Fierce. You may remove [2] to play this minion from your discard pile.
[Gandalf] and [Elven] allies may be assigned to skirmish [Wraith] minions.
Regroup: Exert your Orc and discard a [Wraith] or [Sauron] card from hand to discard a [Gandalf] or [Elven] ally.

- 2x • Ulaire Enquea, Revived: Cost (6). [Wraith] minion. Nazgul. Site 5. Strength 11, Vitality 4. Fierce. Response: If an Orc is killed or discarded from play, exert Ulaire Enquea to shuffle up to two [Wraith] cards from your discard pile into your draw deck (except during the regroup phase).
The shuffling ability makes little sense if we use the ideas depicted above. Unless it can shuffle any Shadow card. Also I changed it from response to an "each time" action, you will see why when you look at Lemenya and Otsea...

By the way, when a minion gets killed, that minion is discarded from play, so you don't have to specify the 2 situations by separate.

[4] • Ulaire Enquea, Revived [Wraith]
Minion • Nazgul
Strength 11  Vitality 4  Site 5.
Fierce. You may remove [2] to play this minion from your discard pile.
Each time an Orc is discarded from play (except during the regroup phase), you may exert this minion to shuffle two Shadow cards from your discard pile into your draw deck.

- 2x • Ulaire Cantea, Revived: Cost (5). [Wraith] minion. Nazgul. Site 5. Strength 10, Vitality 3. Fierce. Each time this minion wins a skirmish, you may discard an Orc from play to shuffle up to two [Wraith] cards from your discard pile into your draw deck?.
The recycling part won't be much useful, and Enquea takes care of that. Cantea might be a twilight facilitator, reducing the cost of other Nazgul. And in the case an Orc gets killed or discarded, they may get other benefits...

[3] • Ulaire Cantea, Revived [Wraith]
Minion • Nazgul
Strength 10  Vitality 3  Site 5.
Fierce. You may remove [2] to play this minion from your discard pile.
Other Nazgûl are twilight cost -1.
Each time an Orc is discarded from play, you may exert Ulaire Cantea to add [2] or draw 2 cards.

Look below at Lemenya and Otsea for insane combos with Cantea and Enquea...

- 2x • Ulaire Nelya, Revived: Cost (5). [Wraith] minion. Nazgul. Site 5. Strength 10, Vitality 3. Fierce. When you play this minion, you may spot an Orc to take a [Wraith] card into hand from your draw deck or discard pile.
If we use the points 1 and 2 depicted above, although cards like this will lose the monopoly of using the discard pile, this nazzie's effect will be even better (as a Nazgul played from hand costs -2 than played from discard). Might be broaden to [Sauron] cards, to assure the presence of a key card (Danger Wrapped in Shadows, Ring of Thrór, Sauron himself).

Naturally, Nelya's text will be abused and he'll be replayed from discard often, so he will be a good bearer of that line that allows the White Council to fight...

[3] • Ulaire Nelya, Revived [Wraith]
Minion • Nazgul
Strength 10  Vitality 3  Site 5.
Fierce. You may remove [2] to play this minion from your discard pile.
[Gandalf] and [Elven] allies may be assigned to skirmish [Wraith] minions.
When you play this minion, you may take a [Wraith] or [Sauron] card into hand from your draw deck or discard pile.

- 1x • Ulaire Nertea, Revived: Cost (4). [Wraith] minion. Nazgul. Site 5. Strength 9, Vitality 2. Fierce. Skirmish: Discard this minion and an Orc from play to play a [Wraith] minion from your draw deck or discard pile, its twilight cost is -4.
This Nazgul depicts very well their behavior in the movie! If a key Nazgul gets killed, you can "revive" him by discarding this one and an Orc. Great!

[2] • Ulaire Nertea, Revived [Wraith]
Minion • Nazgul
Strength 9  Vitality 2  Site 5.
Fierce. You may remove [2] to play this minion from your discard pile.
Skirmish: Discard this minion and an Orc from play to play a [Wraith] minion from your draw deck or discard pile, its twilight cost is -4.

- 1x • Ulaire Lemenya, Revived: Cost (4). [Wraith] minion. Nazgul. Site 5. Strength 9, Vitality 2. Fierce. While you can spot another [Wraith] card, each [Wraith] minion is strength +2 for each Orc you can spot. Regroup: Wound your Orc to shuffle a [Wraith] card from your discard pile into your draw deck.
"Each [Wraith] minion is strength +2 for each Orc you can spot" seems a bit abusive... I know it depends on the survival of Orcs, but Toldea and Danger Wrapped in Shadows should provide enough pumps. I'd prefer he allowed the White Council to fight, as only the Witch King, Toldea, Attea and Nelya share that property...

The regroup action might not be too useful now. I replaced it with a Shadow action, the one ripped from Attea above. But a bit improved: you may discard an Orc from play too. To make a beautiful twilight-adding combo with Cantea, and another to recycle cards with Enquea.

[2] • Ulaire Lemenya, Revived [Wraith]
Minion • Nazgul
Strength 9  Vitality 2  Site 5.
Fierce. You may remove [2] to play this minion from your discard pile.
[Gandalf] and [Elven] allies may be assigned to skirmish [Wraith] minions.
Shadow: Discard a [Wraith] card from hand (or discard an Orc from play) to add [2].

- 1x • Ulaire Ostea, Revived: Cost (4). [Wraith] minion. Nazgul. Site 5. Strength 9, Vitality 3. Fierce. Other Nazgûls are strength +1. Skirmish: Discard an Orc from play to draw 1 card for each [Wraith]? minion you spot.
"Other Nazgûls are strength +1" is OK. But "Nazgûl" is both the singular and plural form...

The skirmish ability should be broaden to [Sauron] minions, and might be a Shadow action instead... With that skill of point 2 (to play them from discard), they won't need to draw too much in the later game. It's still a good idea, to set up killer hands for Sauron or Smaug; given Enquea's recycling skill you may set up good Shadow-heavy draw decks for the latter game.

[2] • Ulaire Otsea, Revived [Wraith]
Minion • Nazgul
Strength 9  Vitality 2  Site 5.
Fierce. You may remove [2] to play this minion from your discard pile.
Other Nazgûl are twilight cost -1 and strength +1.
Shadow: Discard an Orc from play to draw 1 card for each [Wraith] or [Sauron] minion you spot.



So we would have nine Nazgul resurrecting over and over again, like in the movie.

A quick summary:

- 2x Witch King: Adds damage. Allows the White Council to fight.
- 2x Toldea: Adds strength. Allows the White Council to fight.
- 2x Attea: Attempts to discard the White Council. Allows the White Council to fight.
- 2x Enquea: Recycles Shadow cards (when an Orc gets discarded).
- 2x Cantea: Reduces twilight cost. Adds twilight or draws cards (when an Orc gets discarded).
- 2x Nelya: Takes a [Sauron] or [Wraith] card from discard. Allows the White Council to fight.
- 1x Nertea: Retrieves a chosen Nazgul (by discarding himself and an Orc). Does combo with Enquea.
- 1x Lemenya: Adds twilight. Allows the White Council to fight. Does combo with Enquea and Cantea.
- 1x Otsea: Reduces twilight cost and increases strength to everyone else. Draws cards in Shadow phase. Does combo with Enquea and Cantea.


When I was working on the first ideas about the Nazgul minions, I thought of giving them different subtitles like Summoned Wraith, Summoned Sorcerer, Summoned King, Lord, Servant, Lackey, Shadow, Specter, Undead, Ringbearer...
« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 08:27:50 PM by Durin's Heir »
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January 16, 2015, 07:29:31 AM
Reply #43

-Enola-

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2015, 07:29:31 AM »
Sorry I'm making all the cards from the FP packs + all the modifications of the previous cards.
I will answer later on these new packs.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 07:54:42 AM by -Enola- »
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January 17, 2015, 01:12:09 PM
Reply #44

Durin's Heir

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Re: Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game
« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2015, 01:12:09 PM »
Sorry I'm making all the cards from the FP packs + all the modifications of the previous cards.
I will answer later on these new packs.

That's OK.

About a thing you said some time ago...

Most of the cards is fixed now, I think we have all the components of the movies and the book, no?

Besides the Morgul Blade (which doesn't appear in the book and has little importance in the movies), there's at least one element missing: The Black Arrow. What should be removed in order to add it, if that's the case?

I know you made Bard absorb the text of the previous Black Arrow, but... actually there is a function that might be very important to add. Given the new Smaug culture, he will start appearing much sooner and more frequently, and will reappear even after being killed. So there's a lack of a mechanism to remove Smaug from the game, and that's the role Tolkien gave to the Black Arrow. Here's my try:

[2] •The Black Arrow [Dale]
Possession • Ranged Weapon
Strength +1
Bearer must be Bard.
If Smaug is killed by a special ability involving Bard, remove him from the game.
Skirmish: Exert Bard to wound a minion skirmishing a [Dale] man.

I really believe there will be more often than not the need to remove Smaug's reappearances after being rightfully killed. But what can be removed?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 08:28:18 PM by Durin's Heir »
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”  - Malcolm X