Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game

[Durin's Heir]

Yes, I know it's a bit too long . It's a shame. Each time the phrase "The Free Peoples player may" is added, the texts gets horribly bulked.


The problem I see is the clogging and disabling that results when waiting until the Shadow player reveals enough of his/her strategy, to then starting to play up to 3 Dwarf followers. If you don't have a way to discard a follower and you have only 3 safe slots for that, you will need to think and know very well what you are doing with those 3 scarce slots because there is no way back on your control (well, there's Nori but TOO expensive), or depends on a specific FP Pack (Dain, Iron Hills Army, Roäc).

That makes necessary to the FP player to have a way of discarding those followers that won't use, and preferably before the Orkish Marauder triggers (before Shadow phase). That leaves only the Fellowship phase (and "when the fellowship moves").

Thorin has plenty of room for an additional short and simple ability:
"Fellowship: Discard a follower to heal a companion."

Thorin is the most concerned in having plenty of Dwarf followers to use and therefore discarding one is expensive to himself, besides being one of the most concerned in not being easily exhausted (he's the main fighter). That's a good balance of pros and cons.

I believe Thorin's new ability is both simple and well-flavored; it reflects his role of protector (healing). Thorin is always present except when dead, that gives a strong viability. That should solve the problem.

[-Enola-]

I prefer a single ability for each companion in the main deck. Even if it will be well balanced .

Maybe another card could be a bit change ?

To Me! O My Kinsfolk!
Spot a companion (or discard a follower) to play a follower from your discard pile.

[Durin's Heir]

The problem with To Me! O My Kinsfolk! is that it won't decrease the followers, and that's important in case you have in your hand a specific follower you want to have on the board. It's actually not a bad improvement, as it allows to either play a follower, or switch a follower. But doesn't solve the problem completely.

I don't think Thorin should be considered just another Dwarf companion. He's the King of Durin's Folk in exile, or the High King of all Dwarven Houses if you prefer it that way. That skill is simple, short and balanced in gameplay, and strong in story flavor. It would be a short active ability to complement the short passive ability, and both are interdependant in requirements.

Besides, it would give an utility to a follower discarded that way.


If you still don't want to add a skill to a companion, you might broaden Balin's to "Exert Balin or discard a follower in play to shuffle a Free Peoples card from your discard pile into your draw deck." The idea is to reduce the total count of Dwarf followers, not to replace one with another.



You still haven't said a word about the proposal for the Resurrect keyword:
Resurrect - X. (You may exert X minions to play this minion from your discard pile with twilight cost -X.)

That's the shortest and at the same time the most balanced version I could think of. For the reasons described at the last post about it.
http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,9099.msg89736.html#msg89736

[-Enola-]

Ok for Balin, even if just replacing a follower would be another issue :
Exert Balin or discard a follower in play to shuffle a Free Peoples event from your discard pile into your draw deck.

I'm not sure about the best way the Resurrect keyword must be. I prefer a specification of the phase, since cards like Spider Nest allow to play minions in the Assignment phase.

Resurrect - X. (During the Shadow phase, you may exert X minions to play this minion from your discard pile at twilight cost -X.)

I don't know if it must be exert X minions, discard X cards from hand, return X minions in hand ...

[Durin's Heir]

Ok for Balin, even if just replacing a follower would be another issue :
Exert Balin or discard a follower in play to shuffle a Free Peoples event from your discard pile into your draw deck.

"Free Peoples Event" ... I thought the change from "FP event" to "FP card" was fixed, and so I wanted to extend the cost possibilities but mantaining the recent changes on the effect. Balin needs to shuffle back any FP card to get back a discarded ally (Bert, Smaug), possession (Smaug, Demolition Troll), artifact (Smaug, Wrath of the Dragon, Ring of Thrór) or non- artifact like Sting or Glamdring ( Ring of Thrór, William, Smaug)...

I hope Balin's text still recycles any FP card. And I'd prefer to see Thorin's protective (healing) side. He "discarded" Kili from the Company to protect both his life from the danger they were chasing and the Quest from being hindered. I know Kili isn't a follower, discarding a companion would be too powerful, that's not my intention nor it would solve the follower count problem.

Balin's ability costs an exertion, so if Thorin could heal that exertion by discarding a follower, no change to Balin's ability would be necessary at all, as Thorin would make the follower discarding an alternative cost.

I'm not sure about the best way the Resurrect keyword must be. I prefer a specification of the phase, since cards like Spider Nest allow to play minions in the Assignment phase.

Resurrect - X. (During the Shadow phase, you may exert X minions to play this minion from your discard pile at twilight cost -X.)

But Spider Nest specifies it must be played from discard pile or draw deck. If a card said "Maneuver: Play a minion." then it must be a minion from hand (or a minion with Resurrect from discard pile, by paying the Resurrect cost). Every time a card says "play" another card, if it doesn't specify a location, that card must be played from hand. So Spider Nest isn't a valid example.

I know the lack of specification may confuse the new players . In case you want to prevent that confusion, "At the Shadow phase" is shorter than "During the Shadow phase".

Resurrect - X. (At the Shadow phase, you may exert X minions to play this minion from your discard pile at twilight cost -X.)

[Durin's Heir]

I don't know if it must be exert X minions, discard X cards from hand, return X minions in hand ...

1.- Return X minions to hand: I don't like the idea of returning minions, because a minion returned that way may get back to the board completely fresh, allowing this Beatdown culture to set up a strong Swarm if the twilight pool abounds (a Swarm not depending on the cards in hand). That Swarm would be invulnerable to direct wounding due to the fresh vitality of each minion. Apart from the fact Yazneg, Narzug and Orkish Sneak are too cheap to pay that cost over and over again...

- Resurrect - X. (At the Shadow phase, you may return X minions to your hand to play this minion from your discard pile at twilight cost -X.) Quite long.

"Return X minions" is an option that uses more twilight than the others, but has the clear risk of an easy Swarm if the twilight pool is flooded. Without good options for the FP player to counter it.

2.- Exert X minions: Or "Exert a minion X times", are costs I like more. The wounds stay in play and therefore you will keep playing minions from discard if the twilight pool abounds, until the vitality runs out. Unfortunatley the easy Swarm can still be set if the twilight floods, but the FP player has more chances of countering it by direct wounding or some points of archery.

- Resurrect - X. (At the Shadow phase, you may exert X minions to play this minion from your discard pile at twilight cost -X.)

- Resurrect - X. (At the Shadow phase, you may exert a minion X times to play this minion from your discard pile at twilight cost -X.)

Kili and Battle of Azanulbizar can try to revert those eventual Swarms. Legolas might help too. But a Beatdwon culture shouldn't really have an easy option to pull swarms. This one uses more wounds and less twilight than the previous.

3.- Discard X cards from hand: That is actually a great option, frankly I believe it hits the nail! As it doesn't depend on cards in play, the Nazgul can appear even if you lack minions in hand, play or even draw deck. It has the natural limitation of the hand size, so assembling a Swarm will be extremely hard while keeping the Beatdown skirmishes going over and over again. By discarding X cards you interfere with Hatred Rekindled, and that's a good thing. The reduced twilight cost allows to play some Shadow cards from hand if you want to discard FP cards instead.

- Resurrect - X. (At the Shadow phase, you may discard X cards from hand to play this minion from your discard pile at twilight cost -X.)

To prevent Swarms, the X in "Resurrect X" shouldn't be lower than 2 in almost every case. With the associated twilight cost reduction of -X, no change in the base attributes will be needed to counter the high Site Number. Some of the Nazgul might have abilities to draw more cards, to keep resurrecting Nazgul from discard...


Beatdown is the clue here. We might need to keep thinking about new options and the impact each option would have ("Remove X doubts"?). But if we had to decide right now, I'd vote the "Discard X cards" option.

[Cw0rk]

I'm starting to worry about the level of complexity of some cards, and the creation of new keywords. So far I see Wise, Assailant, and now Resurrect...Do every Nazgul need to have this ability? How about creating a support area card with that ability? Or shadow follower? Perhaps the Witch-King could be a shadow follower with a text that is similar to resurrect? Or maybe just make the smaller Nazguls into followers, just like you did with the dwarves. Or could all Nazgul be shadow followers, then they can easily come back every turn? In a way, making them followers could make sense... they were just revived... someone had to go break into the tombs to revive them... now they came back and can follow that character. They also keep on following the Ring-bearer... Plus, having a shadow culture full of high-strength followers could end up creating a completely new type of beatdown strategy, which would be fun. Also, followers can mix well with the Orcs that are already in the main deck.

[Carl333]

Just wondering, is this going to become an actual game, like on gemp? Or is it just imaginary cards.

[Durin's Heir]

Carl333: By now, most cards are printable to play with your friends if you want. The rules and .png cards are in http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr. We are working to polish details prior to add more Shadow cultures: Smaug support cards, Sauron culture and The Nazgul culture are quick to arrive...

There are 2 .pdf files to print them as a batch, you can see them here:
http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,9063.msg88519.html#msg88519
Those .pdf files seem to be a bit outdated (Bard and The Master are now not but Dale culture), but they are totally playable. You might wait for the updates to come prior to printing them...

The game is meant to be played as a board Draft Game instead of a TCG, read the rules first. Though it perfectly can be played with the traditional TCG rules anyway...
So it's far from being a bunch of imaginary cards. The idea is to have this game being played on Gemp. Thanks for your interest!


Cw0rk: Ideas and opinions are welcome, it's been a long while since someone else gave a suggestion.

Wise and Assailant are unloaded keywords, therefore not more harming than Ranger or Valiant. The only new loaded keyword is Resurrect. And yes, every Nazgul will have it. But the idea is to have each Nazgul card explaining in italicized parenthesis the effect of that keyword (just like the Archer keyword is explained in Goblin Marksman), so new players shouldn't have a problem with it. As a loaded keyword it helps to label the concept, and to give a stronger flavor to the culture.

The problem with support area cards is the lack of spare card slots for the culture. The Nazgul Pack consists of 15 cards to be distributed (drafted) amongst the total players, and is part of a bigger Beatdown Pack of 40 cards (10 for Sauron and 15 for Smaug). Those 15 cards are distributed this way: 6 Nazgul have 2 copies each, while 3 have only one, and that's all. There's no room unfortunately for support cards like a condition to replay them, or for The Morgul Blade ("made for the-Witch-King-of-Ang-mar... and buried with him!")...

Given the small number of final cards per player, each must be a good standalone minion. The Resurrect keyword allows to replay them and make a single minion card last as long as you wish.

Your idea of Nazgul followers is quite interesting. It may be used in an Extension Set, I've been working on new Shadow follower proposals and never thought about Nazgul, so you have just opened a whole new field to think about. Thank you.

Anyway, we never see a Nazgul supporting anyone but himself, another Nazgul or Sauron. The Orcs are not part of the Battle at Dol Guldur. So I think by now that those Nazgul followers should say "Bearer must be a Nazgul or Sauron", or perhaps a companion or Wise ally as the Shadow versions of Legolas and Thranduil (to be added in an Extension Set). Or give a stronger effect if being borne by those characters instead of Orcs.

About the tombs and the character that opened them... well, they seem as opened from the inside (01:11:01 in the Extended Edition at least, see the attached image).
- BEORN: "I remember a time when a great evil ruled these lands. One powerful, enough to raise the dead"...

- RADAGAST: "A human sorcerer could not summon such evil."
- GANDALF: "Who said it was human? The Nine only answer to one master. We've been blind, Radagast."

If I remember correctly, Tolkien stated in a letter that the Nazgul served Sauron because he held the Nine Rings after they were consumed by their power. So Sauron summoned them to wake from their tombs, no Orc nor lesser servant went to the High Fells in PJ's movies. It was either Sauron in presence, or Sauron's will.

At the time of The Quest of Erebor, The Nazgul weren't chasing the Ringbearer and Gandalf was desperately trying to keep Sauron away from the path tread by Thorin & Co (the existance of a Ringbearer was known by Sauron many years later, after capturing Gollum). They solely fought The White Council, for Gandalf's secret purpose. The "Wise" keyword was made to target The White Council for benefits or to allow them to skirmish against Sauron & the Nazgul; it's much shorter to say "Wise characters" or "Wise allies" than "Wizards, Galadriel and Elrond".


I'm not Enola, he has the last word about all things here. We will have to wait until he pronounces about your ideas. But I'm glad you gave your thoughts here. Keep on posting sir!

[Cw0rk]

Cw0rk: Ideas and opinions are welcome, it's been a long while since someone else gave a suggestion.

My pleasure. I've actually been looking at your work for a while, although I haven't been commenting much. I find it difficult to comment at the moment since I have tried the cards yet. I have to say that I love what you guys are doing, especially the idea of making this game a draft game.

Wise and Assailant are unloaded keywords, therefore not more harming than Ranger or Valiant.

I have to say that I like the idea of the Wise unloaded keyword, especially since it combine cards from different cultures. But what are these Assailant supposed to be? I think you are under-utilizing the Assailant keyword because from the list of cards, only 3 makes use of the keyword, Azog, Bats and the Troll. I think that in order to make it worthwhile to have that new keyword, other Assailant cards should be making use of that keyword.

About the tombs and the character that opened them... well, they seem as opened from the inside

Sorry, I haven't read the book. I guessed it wrong then. 

Anyway, we never see a Nazgul supporting anyone but himself, another Nazgul or Sauron. The Orcs are not part of the Battle at Dol Guldur. So I think by now that those Nazgul followers should say "Bearer must be a Nazgul or Sauron", or perhaps a companion or Wise ally as the Shadow versions of Legolas and Thranduil (to be added in an Extension Set). Or give a stronger effect if being borne by those characters instead of Orcs.

You are right.  I agree that Orcs are not part of the Battle at Dol Guldur, but they were there at some point (at least in the movie), so it could still possibly make a bit of sense. Also, if you look at Saruman, Servant of Sauron, he can be supporting any minion.

The Resurrect keyword allows to replay them and make a single minion card last as long as you wish.

I think that keywords should be as simple as possible. I love keywords like Archer, Damage +X, or Defender +X, even Lurker, because they are simple to explain and do not involve too many mechanics like discarding or exerting. If you make a keyword for Resurrect, my suggestion is to make it as simple as possible.

Also, after looking at some of the cards you are making, it seems that pretty much every culture has a mechanic to play stuff from the discard pile. I understand that you have to do this in order to make it work for draft, but in a way, it makes things a bit redundant. In LOTR, playing stuff from discard pile was mostly reserved to Moria. Cultures should be different from one another, and that's one reason why I hope that you do something else with Nazgul.

[-Enola-]

Sorry, I wasn't there the last week-end.

Durin's Heir :

I wasn't sure about the Balin "FP card", I talk about it with the playtesters, they found this not very thematic with Balin. Only FP event makes Balin still really good. We can reduce the discarding power of the new Shadows.

I prefer to change only the cost of an ability for the "discard of a follower". The Thorin's ability you propose is too powerful.

Resurrect - X : Ok for the discard X cards in hand. Maybe even, discard X minions from hand (otherwise it will be too easy to play back Nazguls), the Shadow player can replace an Orc card by a Nazgul card.

I totally agree with you, with the small number of Nazgul cards, they must have an ability allowing them to be play back from the discard pile  .


About the Orkish Marauder, maybe his vitality could be only 2 (instead of 3), a Battle of Azanulbizar could then control this minion (or not with a Warg or conditions), like Terrible & Evil and Enquea, LoM.



Carl333 :

I will see with MarcinS to put the Hobbit Draft Game on gemp (as I did for the Multipath format). But the game must be fully tested before, MarcinS will not have the time to modify each card due to playtests.
It's a complete boardgame, not only dreamcards or starts of mechanisms.
I also have to upload all the pdf with the printable cards.



Cw0rk :

Cw0rk: Ideas and opinions are welcome, it's been a long while since someone else gave a suggestion.

My pleasure. I've actually been looking at your work for a while, although I haven't been commenting much. I find it difficult to comment at the moment since I have tried the cards yet. I have to say that I love what you guys are doing, especially the idea of making this game a draft game.

Thank you for your support  , I always appreciate remarks and new ideas on the game, like Durin's Heir said it .

You are right, the Resurrect keyword must be simple. Otherwise, we will make a simple different ability for each Nazgul.
The Assailant keyword is not fixed now, because this Shadow hasn't be tested or even discussed. Maybe we can do without this unloaded keyword.

I'm not a big fan of Shadow followers, but I agree that this a good idea for Nazguls. In this case, we have to create a FP ability which discards Shadow followers.

[Carl333]

Ok thanks, I was just wondering.  I must say though these cards are amazing!

[Durin's Heir]

Sorry, I wasn't there the last week-end.

Take the time you need, my friend .

Resurrect - X : Ok for the discard X cards in hand. Maybe even, discard X minions from hand (otherwise it will be too easy to play back Nazguls), the Shadow player can replace an Orc card by a Nazgul card.

I totally agree with you, with the small number of Nazgul cards, they must have an ability allowing them to be play back from the discard pile  .

I believe the twilight cost reduction in the Resurrect keyword might be removed to gain text room, if the base cost of each Nazgul is reduced by 1 to counter the site number increase. So less and an abilty to be played from discard might be a proper advantage to counter the disadvantage of stopping to roam at Site 5 instead of Site 3.

The Witch King.
Ulaire Attea, Ulaire Toldea, Ulaire Enquea.
Ulaire Cantea, Ulaire Nelya.
Ulaire Otsea, Ulaire Lemenya, Ulaire Nertea.

Resurrect - X. (At the Shadow phase, you may discard X cards from hand to play this minion from your discard pile.) at twilight cost -X.)

That way, the italicized explanation will be a bit shorter, and as our friend Cw0rk points out, the mechanics will be much simpler. 1 or 2 Nazgul might invest part of their free card room in a short line like "Each Nazgul is twilight cost -1" or "Shadow: Exert 2 Nazgul to add " (which use 1 line in the graphic card), to make them more viable.

Don't forget the addition of a text line to allow The White Council to fight. The Witch King and 2 or 3 more should have it.
- "Wise allies can be assigned to Nazgûl."
- "Wise allies can be assigned to minions."


"Discard X minions" isn't a bad idea (prevents Swarms), as far as X is never bigger than 2, otherwise that Nazgul won't be played too much. A possible problem might be clogging, as a player trying to work with the Nazgul culture will have to pack a very high ratio of minions to be able to pay often the Resurrect cost.

Strong Nazgul like Enquea, Toldea and The Witch King (and anyone with a powerful, unbalancing text like Cantea, LoDG) should cost 2 minions, while the rest might get along well with only 1. Smaller Nazgul would cost the same or a bit more than Main Deck Orcs, roaming 2 more sites. And the risk of a Swarm would be almost completely removed, as should be. It has my vote!

Resurrect - X. (At the Shadow phase, you may discard X minions from hand to play this minion from your discard pile.)

"Shadow: Exert 2 Nazgul to draw 2 cards" might be a nice ability to add.


If we could get rid of the "During/At the Shadow phase" part, much text room would be freed, but new players will need some guidance...

I wasn't sure about the Balin "FP card", I talk about it with the playtesters, they found this not very thematic with Balin. Only FP event makes Balin still really good. We can reduce the discarding power of the new Shadows.

I prefer to change only the cost of an ability for the "discard of a follower". The Thorin's ability you propose is too powerful.

A verily thematic ability for Balin would be to take an event into hand like Barliman Butterbur PPP does, but that would be too much. My point is, the card goes back to the draw deck and might never be drawn again.

Thorin's healing skill is powerful. But not extremely powerful, as you will have only 6 follower cards in the Main Deck to discard (plus perhaps Thráin and/or Roäc), you must discard them from play and then pay the associated twilight cost (Bombur is pretty expensive), and you must keep some of them in your power to survive. So 3 or 4 wounds healed per game will be the average I guess, and unlike King In Exile won't be constant nor costless. Still powerful, but not OP. Can help to counter Archery and Beatdown.

Perhaps it should be changed to "Fellowship: Exert Thorin (or discard a follower in play) to shuffle a non-event Free Peoples card from your discard pile into your draw deck". He was the most interested in possessions/artifacts and followers, so I believe it's thematic; along with Balin you would recycle any FP card. A bit too long maybe...

About the Orkish Marauder, maybe his vitality could be only 2 (instead of 3), a Battle of Azanulbizar could then control this minion (or not with a Warg or conditions), like Terrible & Evil and Enquea, LoM.

The problem with the Marauder is it triggers during the Shadow phase, so a Maneuver event won't be able to stop it. Then the Marauder can be changed from "When you play this minion, spot 4 followers..." to "Maneuver: Exert this minion and spot 4 followers...". Just a bit longer, "Dwarf companion" can be changed to " companion" to gain some room. And YES, reduce the vitality from 3 to 2.

[Cw0rk]

How about making the Nazguls' twilight cost higher, or removing fierce, and:

Resurrect (During the shadow phase, you may play this card from your discard pile)

That would be even more simple...

[Durin's Heir]

Removing fierce isn't a good idea. But if the cost is the same as in LOTR TCG with a site number higher by 2 (their site number is 5 here, Mirkwood), and with few possibilities of a twilight flood, then assembling a Swarm with this Beatdown deck won't be so wasy after all: the cheapest twilight cost they have is , while the most expensive Orc in the Main Deck costs too (Watchful Orc)...

3x Watchful Orc (Strength 8)= 3x
4x Goblin Footman, 2x Orkish Marauder (Strength 8) = 6x
3x Orkish Sneak, 2x •Narzug (Strength 6) = 5x
2x •Yazneg (Strength 5) = 2x

After further study of the facts, I don't see too factible the assembling of a Swarm: the safe companions number is 6 here instead of 5 (Orkish Marauder is Greed but spotting 7 comps), followers can help Bilbo or anyone if needed, and there are only 16 Orcs in the Main Deck plus 5 cards to replay Orcs. Nazgul might reinforce the Orcs but their cost is much higher, and they roam too much so the fellowship has a really good time to set up (and Site 2 helps with weapons). There aren't Ents here to flood the twilight pool...

Nazgul are only a part of the Beatdown Pack, but Smaug is expensive and discards some Orcs to do his tricks, while Sauron is expensive too and alike Smaug the only minion of his culture. These Resurrecting Nazgul might be very dangerous with Orcs feeding the twilight pool, but the chances are very low (and 4 players or more would be needed).

Therefore, Swarming chances are very low in my opinion, using LOTR TCG costs for the Nazgul, nothing more and nothing less. If we want to reduce to zero those possibilities, adding to 2 or 3 Nazgul a line like "At the start of the maneuver phase, wound each Orc" (only an example, but this kills a combo with Orcs) should solve all the peril.

Cw0rk's version takes 2 card lines only. Looks very promising!