Don't wanna make polemics or something but

[Kev-La]

...First comes faith in God...

I find your posts to be interesting and well-written, Gil-Estel. I am sincerely curious as to your reasoning behind your faith in God. Would you say that you want this faith, need this faith, or simply find yourself feeling this faith without really understanding why?
I am myself an admirer of much that Socrates is described as having attempted to teach. If someone was to ask me if God exists, the simplest way for me to truthfully answer would be "I don't know". And I'm honestly fine not knowing.

[Gil-Estel]

...First comes faith in God...

Would you say that you want this faith, need this faith, or simply find yourself feeling this faith without really understanding why?

I would have to say the latter, since that makes least sense, and thus most sense of all. . Since there is little reason in having faith, since it cannot be proven, I would say it has to be the last. That is also how the bible tells it to be. It also should make people -and here it is again- modest. I am not a better person since I am a Christian and thus trying to make something of my life, where others, allthough maybe making a better life but not choose to follow Christ.
Thanks for the compliment, I try to make my posts easy to read, which is difficult for so many reasons. First of all, eventhough I find my way in it, english is not my native language, and with such subject I find it hard to find the right words to describe several issues. Second is that it is hard to take out a single part of Christianity and neglecting other parts. There is so much I want to add, but less is more, so I need to pick wisely.

Well, I can return the compliment, by saying yours are a pleasure to read. But let me return a question too.  Can I ask you, is there a deeper meaning to life? And since the possible answer to that question is: I don't know, is it something you're after? And if it is something you're after, how?

[hrcho]

Gil: We've gone a bit astray from where I wanted our discussion to go and landed in area where I cannot dispute your claims, nor can you mine, because it comes down to faith or lack of one. I was hoping to lead it more in the way of Christian perspective of homosexuality, so I wish to resume from where I left of.

I believe I made good arguments about homosexuality not being condemned by god and was hoping to see some opinions about that. Why do Christians condemn homosexuality if their God does not?

[Gil-Estel]

Well, Hrcho, you discarded Leviticus by stating that most is discarded, so this part is not necessary too. I do not agree. Certainly a lot of rules are gone but I think you need to distinguish some rules from others. That sounds cheap, but I will explain. God gave various rules to his people. Some rules for living with God, some rules in regards to living with eachother. Rules about living with God involved a lot of sacrifices, which all became 'useless' with the coming of Christ. The rules about how to live together and how to live in the right fashion, well, I think they still apply. The part where sexuality is written about, well, most rules many of us can subscribe. You don't have sex with your mother, your sister, your brother's wife, an animal etc. I know these things exist, and maybe we all have brothers with extremely good looking wives, so we might be tempted, but least to say, it is frowned upon, agreed?
But I think it goes further than just those 3 parts we come across in the Bible. If it was only that, it would have been very obvious that there would/could/should have been more debate about it. As we look to the Bible as a whole, the is something as a Godly 'order'. We can see in the Bible, in basics, how God has intended the world to be. How lame it might sound, it was Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. The whole Bible is filled with examples of man and wife, living to gether, enjoying sexuality and raising some of the consequences of sexuality, children. Based upon that Godly order there are Christians -like some found on these boards- that say that God disapproves homosexuality.
But let that be clear. God disapproves. Not the church, not the Christians -allthough I know some do condemn homosexuality, which is just as wrong as the website this topic started with- God disapproves homosexuality. But remember, not the gay person!

You could say, and I would understand that you actually would -because these things have been on my mind as well- that God is cruel for not letting people being who they deeply are. If they have feelings for some other person, eventhough from the same gender, and it is true love, how can you deny them those feelings? To that it comes to 'understanding' that God is way beyond our dimensions. But let me say this: is denying something to a person, eventhough he/she wants it badly always an act of cruelty? I mean, parents that deny their child something, is that an act of cruelty? Or lack of love? Sometimes, and I think we all can come up with examples, denying something to someone, is, even when it is painful, a great act of love!

Now we are adults, no children, so you could say, we could reason with God and hold Him accountable for this. But in the comparison parent/child we must understand that parents in general are supposed to know more, know better and act more responsible than their children. In that way the comparison makes sense, since I think we could agree that if God exists, he is supposed to know more, know better and act more responsible than us. And like a child can be frustrated with the actions of it's parents, so can we be frustrated with the actions of God, but it doesn't make it more wrong. Our disagreement (people vs God) doesn't make it more wrong.

[hrcho]

God gave various rules to his people. Some rules for living with God, some rules in regards to living with eachother. Rules about living with God involved a lot of sacrifices, which all became 'useless' with the coming of Christ. The rules about how to live together and how to live in the right fashion, well, I think they still apply.

There are indeed a lot of rules there that are good and would be better if more people lived by them, but there are so many more of those which make absolutely no sense and it is more than obvious that those rules were set by man and not god. Especially if you look in the punishment department.

You could say, and I would understand that you actually would -because these things have been on my mind as well- that God is cruel for not letting people being who they deeply are. If they have feelings for some other person, eventhough from the same gender, and it is true love, how can you deny them those feelings? To that it comes to 'understanding' that God is way beyond our dimensions. But let me say this: is denying something to a person, eventhough he/she wants it badly always an act of cruelty? I mean, parents that deny their child something, is that an act of cruelty? Or lack of love? Sometimes, and I think we all can come up with examples, denying something to someone, is, even when it is painful, a great act of love!

Okay, tell me where I am wrong.
God created man. God gave free will to man to choose his course in life. That man finds he has feelings for another man. It was not his choice, he simply feels. Those feelings also come from god. That man now can exercise his free will. He can either go along with his feelings and live his life fully or he can suppress them and live out the remainder of his life in misery. If he goes with the former, he is homosexual (or is he homosexual even by having those feelings?) and thus he gets an F in god's book of judgment or if he goes with the latter, he'll get an A in god's book, but the fact that he is miserable with his wife or alone doesn't matter. God was testing him and thus either making his life miserable or his afterlife.

Those feelings are god-given, so how can they be wrong?

[jdizzy001]

In addition to Gil's comments.  Gil brings up a good point, that God is greater than us and thus knows MORE than us.  So it stands to reason to say that the commandments received from God are given to us from the position of experience or authority.  The commandments are given to us so we can learn to use our free will (which I will refer to from now on as agency) responsibly.  The end game we are shooting for, as christians, is more than just go to heaven, sit in a cloud and play a harp all day.  The end game of christianity is to become a joint heir with christ. I strongly encourage everyone to learn what that means, a joint heir with Christ.  Once we understand what a joint heir with Christ is and what a Joint-Heir does (here is a hint: Psalms 82:6, John 10:34 and Romans 8:16-17), the rules given to us from God make more sense.  They are to prepare us to be joint-heirs.

As far as homosexualitly is concerned, 1 Cor. 6:9-10 give a pretty extensive list as to why Christians condemn homosexuality, as well as a number of other behaviors.  However, this list is only valid if you believe Pauls letter to the Corinthians to be doctrine.  It was brought up earlier in the blog that Paul was a man, not a god.  However, I will make the arguement that though Paul is not God, he was called and given authority to speak in the name of God, giving his list godly authority.  Whether by the voice of God or by his servents, it is the same.

Homosexual feelings are challenges given to a person to overcome.  Do they have to marry a woman to overcome them?  No.  They must learn to exercise their agency in a manner which is pleasing to God.  Everyone is given different trials to overcome, for some, their challange is Homosexuality, for others it is beastiality (If someone has lust towards an animal are they not living their life to its fullest by refraining to engage in sexual intercourse with the animal?), for others their challange is something completely different.  Nevertheless, God will not allow us to be tempted above what we are able to bear.  Everyhthing boils down to learning to exercise your agency in a manner which is becoming of a joint heir with Christ

[Gil-Estel]

Well, Hrcho, I guess I have to say this about free will. I believe indeed that God gave men free will. In the beginning how ever. Men was given the free will to live with God, or without him. Since men chose to live without him, we suffer the consequences of that choice. This is yet another example of what I tried to explain to Kev-La. Christian doctrines are hard to take apart, since they are all related.

The consequences of this choice is a life apart from God, and filled with the consequences of sin. Feelings that are not the way God has intended them, lying, sorrow, pain, stealing, betrayal, etc etc. Since the choice had been made, we could ourselves not return to the lightside. This because we were once presented the choice, along with the consequences. However, God gave menkind a second chance. A future with God or live life the way it is.... Therefor it is needed to accept Christ. Let me again emphasize...this is all faith, not logic.

[hrcho]

As far as homosexualitly is concerned, 1 Cor. 6:9-10 give a pretty extensive list as to why Christians condemn homosexuality, as well as a number of other behaviors.  However, this list is only valid if you believe Pauls letter to the Corinthians to be doctrine.  It was brought up earlier in the blog that Paul was a man, not a god.  However, I will make the arguement that though Paul is not God, he was called and given authority to speak in the name of God, giving his list godly authority.  Whether by the voice of God or by his servents, it is the same.

It most certainly is not the same. If pope added his doctrines to the Bible would you accept them as if they are from God himself? No matter what those doctrines said? Because who has more "godly authority" to do that than him?

Homosexual feelings are challenges given to a person to overcome.  Do they have to marry a woman to overcome them?  No.  They must learn to exercise their agency in a manner which is pleasing to God.  Everyone is given different trials to overcome, for some, their challange is Homosexuality, for others it is beastiality (If someone has lust towards an animal are they not living their life to its fullest by refraining to engage in sexual intercourse with the animal?), for others their challange is something completely different.  Nevertheless, God will not allow us to be tempted above what we are able to bear.  Everyhthing boils down to learning to exercise your agency in a manner which is becoming of a joint heir with Christ

I am saddened that you think so. It stands against any reason. Do you think you could live your life in fullest if you had a great desire, great wish that you could not get? Something that is in no way a threat to anyone else, but simply the way you feel, the way you are? And if you couldn't be who you are, if you through your will do not allow yourself to be yourself, what are you? A mere shadow of a man who will attempt to live, but never succeed because some stupid man a long time ago said that homosexuality will get your soul to #$&*@!. Would you consider yourself living your life in fullest?

This because we were once presented the choice, along with the consequences. However, God gave menkind a second chance. A future with God or live life the way it is.... Therefor it is needed to accept Christ. Let me again emphasize...this is all faith, not logic.

I hope you are not saying what I think you're saying. Are you saying that we are guilty for the sins of our ancestors? So far, (most of) your words I could not easily dispute, because your words were ones of faith, thus this comes unexpected. You cannot possibly believe that we must redeem the sins of our mothers and fathers, can you? Can you explain to me what kind of god what ask of you to do that? One that would be good as bank manager, no doubt, but not as a perfect, all loving and all caring being.
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You Christians keep saying how perfect and beyond our understanding is god and then you go and give him human personality. 

[Gate Troll]

I think homosexuality is more wrong in that it is a affliction that has come about because of sin.

I, unlike many people who declare themselves as Christians, have read The Bible. More than once, actually. In my reading, I found exactly zero sentences or passages in which God condemns homosexuality. So, I'm asking you, where from do you take your stand that homosexuality comes from sin and thus is in itself a sin?

Romans 1:27

[hrcho]

Romans 1:27

Have you read my next post?

[sickofpalantirs]

So, everyone sins and everyone needs salvation. Also, all the sins are redeemable. What's the point of those rules then?

Everyone has sinned, and upon becoming a Christian everyone is amde Righteous.  However, aftyer becoming a Christian you should become Holy and stop sinning.  Ie, follow the rules.  Or at least move towards that  Essentially the rules boil down to two things though, Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and might, and Love your neighbor as yourself.  For this sums up the law and the prophets. 

[hrcho]

Why does God, as higher being, as being of perfection, as creator to all, as "father" to all, as something beyond our comprehension and understanding require our love and our faith? More so, it's not a mere requirement, but a rule! And mind you, probably the most important rule of all. That sounds to me like he's an insecure leader who needs his followers to prostrate before him, to build him statues and worship him to bolster his ego.

That is how I see the Christian representation of God. Am I wrong?

[Gate Troll]

Romans 1:27

Have you read my next post?

Ever heard of inspired writing?

[jdizzy001]

Quote from: jdizzy001 on Today at 09:41:41 AM
As far as homosexualitly is concerned, 1 Cor. 6:9-10 give a pretty extensive list as to why Christians condemn homosexuality, as well as a number of other behaviors.  However, this list is only valid if you believe Pauls letter to the Corinthians to be doctrine.  It was brought up earlier in the blog that Paul was a man, not a god.  However, I will make the arguement that though Paul is not God, he was called and given authority to speak in the name of God, giving his list godly authority.  Whether by the voice of God or by his servents, it is the same.

Hrcho:
It most certainly is not the same. If pope added his doctrines to the Bible would you accept them as if they are from God himself? No matter what those doctrines said? Because who has more "godly authority" to do that than him?

Jdizzy001:
As far as the Pope adding to scriptures, I'm not Catholic so I don't recognize the Pope's authority.  (No offense to any catholic's out there.)  However, when one who is called of god to speak, say a Moses (I use Moses because, as far as I know, all Christians would listen to what Moses had to say if he were to suddenly start teaching again.) for our time, YES, every Christian should heed the individual's words because if they are truely called of God to speak, then they are GOD'S words.  That is what prophets were for during the time of the Old and New Testaments.  So the objective is to learn who REALLY speaks for God. 


Quote from: jdizzy001 on Today at 09:41:41 AM
Homosexual feelings are challenges given to a person to overcome.  Do they have to marry a woman to overcome them?  No.  They must learn to exercise their agency in a manner which is pleasing to God.  Everyone is given different trials to overcome, for some, their challange is Homosexuality, for others it is beastiality (If someone has lust towards an animal are they not living their life to its fullest by refraining to engage in sexual intercourse with the animal?), for others their challange is something completely different.  Nevertheless, God will not allow us to be tempted above what we are able to bear.  Everyhthing boils down to learning to exercise your agency in a manner which is becoming of a joint heir with Christ

Hrcho:
I am saddened that you think so. It stands against any reason. Do you think you could live your life in fullest if you had a great desire, great wish that you could not get? Something that is in no way a threat to anyone else, but simply the way you feel, the way you are? And if you couldn't be who you are, if you through your will do not allow yourself to be yourself, what are you? A mere shadow of a man who will attempt to live, but never succeed because some stupid man a long time ago said that homosexuality will get your soul to #$&*@!. Would you consider yourself living your life in fullest?

Jdizzy001:
If my greatest desire was to slay and murder people, then i should not live life to its fullest.  However, I understand the point you are trying to make.  Nevertheless, as a Christian I believe in restraint.  If my God wants me to refrain from certain activities then I will have to take it on faith that he knows something about these activities that I don't.  I would live my life in such a way so that God can bless me for obedience instead of gratifying my lusts and trying to justifiy away his mandates.
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Hrcho:
You Christians keep saying how perfect and beyond our understanding is god and then you go and give him human personality. 

Jdizzy001:
God is a man, glorified, immortal, and perfected. Why else would Christ say if ye know me ye know the father?  God doesn't need our faith.  WE need it.

God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, therefore, if he called prophets in the times of the Old and New Testaments then he will call prophets in our day.  If he didn't he would change and cease to be God.

Again, I apply human characteristics to God because he is a human. Immortal, Glorified, and Perfected.  I don't believe in the Nicean Creed, it's confusing and doesn't make sense.

[jdizzy001]

Sorry about the double post.  By the way, this is a rousing conversation.  I hope those participating are being edified in someway.  This has been a real blast and a half.  I hope were all taking things in stride, learning from each others Point of Views and not destroying virtual friendships =)!