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Author Topic: TLHH Virtual Set #1: Preliminary Discussion  (Read 37475 times)

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February 05, 2011, 10:02:24 AM
Reply #45

hrcho

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Re: TLHH Virtual Set #1
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2011, 10:02:24 AM »
[Dwarven] - Gimli, DoE or Gimli, Lockbearer. To me they both seem as good candidates for a flagship character. Lockbearer maybe even a bit more than Gimli, DoE, because he is rare. On the other hand, I don't have an idea what to do with them. Dwarven strategies are pretty much successful (card stacking, heavy buffing, high damage...). Maybe we could make them gain/give bonuses for multi/culture (such as Lockbearer already does, but something more useful). Lockbearer text is not that bad, it's just that when someone's playing 2 unbound hobbits, they'll much rather go for Legolas, DH and/or Aragorn, Wingfoot.
@Witchkingx5: There are far better options for EoL dekcs (I'd even rather choose Hugin, EfL, not to mention Dear Friends.) Gimli, DoE is too expensive. And I don't know how many games of TTT or TS you played, but I've seen Lockbearer only once or twice and even then, he was used mainly to add to the theme as Gimli, SoG or Gimli, UG would've worked much better.

[Rohan] Sigewulf, Brave Volunteer - this could definitely go for a change. We could make his text encourage Valiant companions and [Rohan] discard/card-under-deck manipulation. Because Eomer, TMoR is so good and is not valiant, Valiant [Rohan] decks suffer.

[Elven] - Lightfootedness -  we could make this a card to enhance Naith Elves. They are underplayed.

[gollum] - Days Growing Dark - aye, I agree to make this card enhance Discarding Smeagol

[Gondor] -  Change of Plans - I've seen this card used only in Fruit Loops. RotK rangers are underplayed here. Something to help them?

[Shire] - Fearing the worst - here I disagree. It's a powerful card although severely underplayed. I use it in several of my [Shire] decks and it saved my #$&*@! many times against [Isengard] and [Sauron] trackers. I was thinking maybe Frodo, Master of Precious to even more encourage Discarding Smeagol.

[Wraith] - The Witch-King, Deathless Lord - as I said, I agree that this be the flagship minion.

[gollum] - Gollum, NTC - I would rather take another card, but I honestly can't think of one. This might go.

[Isengard] - Alive and Unspoiled or Grima, SoG - both these cards are good candidates as both strategies have failed. [Isengard] men rarely work and could use some help. [Isengard] discard and/or corruption needs a lot of help.

[Raider] - Men of Harad - [Raider] site control could use a boost.

[Moria] - I'd love to enhance [Moria] corruption, so something along those lines would be great. Like Goblin Spear or Must Do Without Hope.

[Dunland] - Leaping Blaze seems a good choice. A sort of [Dunland] discard.


As for The One Ring, Must Be Destroyed - it's not a bad idea, although I'd change it a bit. Something like this maybe:

•The One Ring, Must Be Destroyed
Str: +1
Res: +1
At the end of the turn, if the Fellowship didn't move twice, add a burden.
Response: If the Ring-bearer is about to take a wound during skirmish, he or she wears The One Ring until the regroup phase. While the Ring-bearer is wearing The One Ring, each time he or she is about to take a wound, add a burden instead.
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February 05, 2011, 11:38:52 AM
Reply #46

Thranduil

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Re: TLHH Virtual Set #1
« Reply #46 on: February 05, 2011, 11:38:52 AM »
I'd like to stress that these are (V) cards—so titles can't change. I love the idea of the ring that encourages movement for you to destroy it, but if that is the flavour we are going for then I think it should be Isildur's Bane (V). I would most like to make a (V) version of the Ruling Ring because it is a card that everybody has tonnes of and will almost never use.

Other card ideas are very good. I suggested 9 both because of the aestheticism of 9 in LotR and also to be unambitious. But running with a 15 card set could work well.

Let's have a look at Tbiesty's list:

Ring:                                 V1R1  [Ring] The One Ring, Must Be Destroyed
I've made my notes on this already. I strongly think this should be the Ruling Ring (V).

Companion:                       V1F2   [Dwarven] Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor
Dwarf of Erebor is a good remake, though I strongly hear the arguments for Lockbearer instead. I think on flavour grounds, I would rather go for Dwarf of Erebor (the subtitle is much more fluid than Lockbearer, though Lockbearer itself is a bad subtitle for the card that in no way describes an unbound Hobbit strategy).

Ally:                                  V1F3    [Rohan] Sigewulf, Brave Volunteer
I think a [Rohan] ally is a good shout—a strategy right there that never got going. Aren't there any rare [Rohan] allies? I think I'd rather go for one of those.

Other:                               V1F4    [Gandalf] Stump and Bramble
Very good idea. Title is limited to working with Ents, but that's fine.

                                         V1F5    [Elven] Lightfootedness
Good flavour, lots of scope. Seems fine.

                                         V1F6    [Gollum] Days Growing Dark
Sure. The suggestion about supporting the Frodo+Sam+Sméagol strategy seems a reasonable fit here.

                                         V1F7    [Gondor] Change of Plans
I think this is a good choice. Doesn't scream flavour though... Isn't there another useless [Gondor] rare we would rather do? Also I was kind of surprised that a [Gondor] guy isn't the flagship character. I'd love to see an Aragorn or Boromir as the flagship, much more than Gimli.

                                         V1F8    [Shire] Fearing the Worst
Again a good choice.


Major Minion:                     V1S9    [Wraith] The Witch-King, Deathless Lord
Yes I think The Witch-King is a great flagship, and it naturally makes sense to use the rubbish P version. This probably won't meet much argument!

Minor Minion:                     V1S10    [Gollum] Gollum, Nasty Treacherous Creature
Revamping a common Gollum is also good. But I wonder if having two major characters as the 2 minions in the set sends mixed signals. I think I'd rather have an unimportant minion for this slot. (Uruk Captain?)

Other:                                V1S11    [Isengard] Alive and Unspoiled
Yes I like it. We could make it to support the search card TTT strategy.

                                          V1S12   [Sauron] The Weight of a Legacy
Whoever said this was one of the most obvious cards that everyone would expect in the first set I think was right!

                                          V1S13   [Raider] Men of Harad
Ever found it odd that the two cards Men of Harad and Men of Rhun had absolutely nothing to do with each other? When we do this card (which we will, in this set or a following), we should make it so that both of the cards look like part of the cycle they ought to be.

                                          V1S14   [Moria] The End Comes
This has always seemed a weird card in [Moria] to me. Probably has potential.

                                          V1S15   [Dunland] Leaping Blaze
We could make a much better version of this card for sure.

I think this is a good basis.


Strategies we've talked about helping:

• Náith
• Sméagol discard
[Rohan] discard
• Valiant
[Isengard] Men
• Search cards
• Site control
[Moria] corruption
[Dunland] discard
[Gondor] Knights
• Ents

Good stuff to think about.

Thranduil
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 11:41:13 AM by Thranduil »

February 05, 2011, 11:39:48 AM
Reply #47

Kralik

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Re: TLHH Virtual Set #1
« Reply #47 on: February 05, 2011, 11:39:48 AM »
I'd go with the Ruling Ring over that option any day. Basically, you get +1 Res, but on the first turn you don't double the advantage is lost. It's only downhill from there. :P

February 05, 2011, 12:01:35 PM
Reply #48

Not a Zombie

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Re: TLHH Virtual Set #1
« Reply #48 on: February 05, 2011, 12:01:35 PM »
I think rather than Change of Plans, maybe Strength of Kings as I suggested earlier. Either option is good though.
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February 05, 2011, 12:08:36 PM
Reply #49

Tbiesty

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Re: TLHH Virtual Set #1
« Reply #49 on: February 05, 2011, 12:08:36 PM »
Idea for The One Ring:

The One Ring, The Ruling Ring [Ring] (Something to encourage an urgency to destroy the ring, i.e. double-moving)
Str: +1
Each time the fellowship moves during the fellowship phase, either exert the Ring-bearer or add a burden.
Response: If the Ring-bearer is about to take a wound, he or she wears The One Ring until the regroup phase. While the Ring-bearer is wearing The One Ring, each time he or she is about to take a wound, add a burden instead.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 01:28:48 PM by Tbiesty »

February 05, 2011, 12:18:54 PM
Reply #50

Kralik

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Re: TLHH Virtual Set #1
« Reply #50 on: February 05, 2011, 12:18:54 PM »
Now that ring looks quite interesting. :)

February 05, 2011, 12:21:14 PM
Reply #51

hrcho

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Re: TLHH Virtual Set #1
« Reply #51 on: February 05, 2011, 12:21:14 PM »
It does, but I think it's too powerful for a common ring. It can soak up wounds at any time, like Isilldur's Bane, but its penalty is far lower.
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February 05, 2011, 01:35:31 PM
Reply #52

Tbiesty

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Re: TLHH Virtual Set #1
« Reply #52 on: February 05, 2011, 01:35:31 PM »
Getting close to narrowing the list down... (Anything else before we "finalize" it?)

Ring:                                 V1R1  [Ring] The One Ring, The Ruling Ring

Companion:                       V1F3   [Dwarven] Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor
Ally:                                  V1F12  [Rohan] Sigewulf, Brave Volunteer
Other:                               V1F5    [Gandalf] Stump and Bramble
                                         V1F4    [Elven] Lightfootedness
                                         V1F6    [Gollum] Days Growing Dark
                                         V1F8    [Gondor] Strength of Kings
                                         V1F14  [Shire] Fearing the Worst

Major Minion:                     V1S15  [Wraith] The Witch-King, Deathless Lord
Minor Minion:                     V1S7    [Gollum] Gollum, Nasty Treacherous Creature
Other:                                V1S9    [Isengard] Alive and Unspoiled
                                          V1S13  [Sauron] The Weight of a Legacy
                                          V1S11  [Raider] Men of Harad
                                          V1S10  [Moria] The End Comes
                                          V1S2    [Dunland] Leaping Blaze

February 05, 2011, 02:49:23 PM
Reply #53

Thranduil

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Re: TLHH Virtual Set #1
« Reply #53 on: February 05, 2011, 02:49:23 PM »
It does, but I think it's too powerful for a common ring. It can soak up wounds at any time, like Isilldur's Bane, but its penalty is far lower.
We're not looking to make a common ring, but a virtual ring. Of course it will be available to everyone with as many copies as they like, so it shouldn't dominate and make it the ring that is always the correct one to use. But it has to be better than RR otherwise it completely misses the point!

So we need something which is more useful than the Ruling Ring, but not better than any of the rare rings (because we should reward people for collecting real cards).

I think we should be looking for a strategy specific ring: i.e. every deck will not want to play it because it is better in some decks than others,

Thran

February 05, 2011, 03:25:29 PM
Reply #54

Kralik

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Re: TLHH Virtual Set #1
« Reply #54 on: February 05, 2011, 03:25:29 PM »
The Binding Ring is a good example of that "strategy specific" focus.

February 06, 2011, 03:09:43 AM
Reply #55

Witchkingx5

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Re: TLHH Virtual Set #1
« Reply #55 on: February 06, 2011, 03:09:43 AM »
I am the only one who does not like to "force to double move" type of ring? I still think that it's nearly impossible to make it balanced, and from my point of view, I think this very "strategy specific" card really needs t be a Rare.

Agree on those others even though not being happy to see DoE on the list. Where is ket's support when you need it? ;)

February 06, 2011, 03:32:22 AM
Reply #56

hrcho

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Re: TLHH Virtual Set #1
« Reply #56 on: February 06, 2011, 03:32:22 AM »
Agree on those others even though not being happy to see DoE on the list. Where is ket's support when you need it? ;)

We are all fond of some cards that are not being used that much and we think them underplayed. I think that about Fearing the Worst (because it saved me so many times) and about Gollum, NTC (because he was the first Gollum I got and I used him in my Isengard Archer deck). But the statistical fact is that all of those cards are really rarely used, especially in GCCG where you always have a choice of a better card.

I love the picture on Gimli, DoE... and the funny thing is, I learned that he has errata just yesterday. And that errata makes him even more useless.

I am good with that list. I believe we can start remaking the cards. I suggest we open a new topic where we will actually come up with the new versions of the cards and leave this one for general discussion about the first virtual set.
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February 06, 2011, 04:21:07 AM
Reply #57

Witchkingx5

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Re: TLHH Virtual Set #1
« Reply #57 on: February 06, 2011, 04:21:07 AM »
ok. let's start then.

February 06, 2011, 07:42:17 AM
Reply #58

Tbiesty

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Re: TLHH Virtual Set #1
« Reply #58 on: February 06, 2011, 07:42:17 AM »
I think the list is good to go.  For this first set, we tried to pick cards that haven't been used much since they came out. Sorry, if anyone was offended if a card that you are attached to personally was picked.  Besides, the original versions of the cards will still be available to use, so you're not losing anything.

Let do this!

February 07, 2011, 01:14:46 PM
Reply #59

Thranduil

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Re: TLHH Virtual Set #1
« Reply #59 on: February 07, 2011, 01:14:46 PM »
Getting close to narrowing the list down... (Anything else before we "finalize" it?)

Ring:                                 V1R1  [Ring] The One Ring, The Ruling Ring

Companion:                       V1F3   [Dwarven] Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor
Ally:                                  V1F12  [Rohan] Sigewulf, Brave Volunteer
Other:                               V1F5    [Gandalf] Stump and Bramble
                                         V1F4    [Elven] Lightfootedness
                                         V1F6    [Gollum] Days Growing Dark
                                         V1F8    [Gondor] Strength of Kings
                                         V1F14  [Shire] Fearing the Worst

Major Minion:                     V1S15  [Wraith] The Witch-King, Deathless Lord
Minor Minion:                     V1S7    [Gollum] Gollum, Nasty Treacherous Creature
Other:                                V1S9    [Isengard] Alive and Unspoiled
                                          V1S13  [Sauron] The Weight of a Legacy
                                          V1S11  [Raider] Men of Harad
                                          V1S10  [Moria] The End Comes
                                          V1S2    [Dunland] Leaping Blaze

I have 3 issues with the list as it stands:

1) I'm not convinced by Gimli as a flagship character. Gimli is never half as exciting as a kickass Aragorn or Boromir (or even Faramir). I think I'd rather see an awesome [Gondor] character at V1**1, or possibly an awesome Gandalf (Grey Pilgrim (V), for example?).

(aside: Tbiesty, your numbering system is alphabetical; I think it will be easier to ignore the titles for a bit and keep the numbers thematic, so companions, then artifacts, then possessions, then conditions, then events, in culture order—that way if the card changes, the slot number stays the same).

2) I am not sure about having 2 unique minions, especially when those two minions are some of the most important minions in the entire book. I want the Witch King, but then I want to have either a non-unique minion or one of much lesser import. We shouldn't try to shine the light away from the Wikkie—he'll probably get mad.

3) I'm also worried the character ratio is a bit off. Characters are always the coolest and most useful cards that get made, so I feel we should include more than 4 out of 15. I'd go for at least 3FP/3SH. This would also allow us to keep a Dwarf of Erebor version while making an Aragorn or something for the flagship.

What do people think of these suggestions?



While thinking about the actual cards, we need to think about the goal of the set and the niche we want it to fill. We should consistently name each card slot with a purpose attached to it. The purpose should be perhaps a strategy/deck it's designed to go in, the type of player who will want it, distinguishing flavour, or any other key feature. Once we have an idea of what we want the cards and the set to do, then we can have some card submissions.

Thran