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Author Topic: V1: The One Ring (alpha playtests)  (Read 38822 times)

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February 08, 2011, 02:56:31 PM
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Thranduil

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V1: The One Ring (alpha playtests)
« on: February 08, 2011, 02:56:31 PM »
Here is the list of cards for Virtual Set #1 (V1) so far decided, along with some notes. The notes will hopefully be updated as we fill out more of the details of the set.

Code                      Card                                                                  Notes
V1*R01                   The One Ring, The Ruling Ring                              not too universal that it makes others obsolete

V1GA02                   Gandalf, The Grey Wizard                                     flagship character
V1DW03                  Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor                                          
V1RO04                   Sigewulf, Brave Volunteer or Aldor                        valiant companions and/or [Rohan] discard
V1GF05                   Days Growing Dark                                              discarding Sméagol
V1SH06                   Fearing the Worst                                                fighting Hobbits?
V1EL07                    Lightfootedness                                                   something for the Náith?
V1GO08                   Strength of Kings                                                unbound rangers or knights? (RotK)

V1WA09                  The Witch-King, Deathless Lord                             flagship character
V1MO10                  Goblin Archer                                                      [Moria] archery and/or corruption
V1RA11                   Desert Lancers                                                    Southron site control
V1IS12                    Alive and Unspoiled                                             [Isengard] search cards and/or corruption
V1SA13                   The Weight of a Legacy
V1DU14                   Leaping Blaze                                                     [Dunland] discard? playing during skirmish phase?
V1GS15                   Master Broke His Promise


BEAR IN MIND that this list is unlikely to remain completely unchanged. It may be that for individual card design reasons, or whole set design reasons that the list will have to be modified. I'm just making this clear now so that it isn't a problem when it happens.



Goals
Virtual Set #1 aims to:
• Make new cards aimed at different deck-types, formats and players
• Fill out old and lacking strategies
• Get old cards out of the boxes and trade folders and into decks
• "Upgrade" older cards to modern design standards, but in no way to replace those cards


The Rules of Virtual Design
A couple of things are worth mentioning here, just to be super clear. There are some things we can change and some things we can't. First, what we can change:
• Attributes (strength, vitality etc.)
• Game text
• Lore text (though this may cause legal issues, which we'll have to know about)
• Collector's info (the virtual version is a different card, so has different rarity (V) and other collector's info)

Now, what we can't change:
• Title or sub-title
• Twilight cost
• Culture
• Picture
• Template

And this is what I think we shouldn't change in the 1st set:
• Type and sub-type
• Type/sub-type bar (eg. artifact --> possession or vice versa)

So we are making cards that:
• connect in flavour to the card's title and culture
• work for balance with the given twilight cost
• fulfil the aims set out above

A note on rarity: Rarity is only an issue insofar as availability of the physical card matters. So we can probably make virtual cards of rares slightly higher on the power curve because they'll be marginally less available. But nevertheless, we have to both be aware that the V rarity should both feel different and interesting as well as not be too much of a problem that normally a collectible card game fixes by availability, because anyone is free to download and use as many V cards as they like.


Set Themes & Title
This is of course completely up for debate. I think a theme will be useful in narrowing down our card designs (as Mark Rosewater would say: "Restrictions breed creativity"), and a title could be useful in advertising the appeal of the set. As I mentioned in the other thread, I like picking out the idea of Gandalf vs. the Witch-King, which led in my mind to the idea of resistance vs. corruption. With that in mind, I think a nice title/tagline would be Light & Shadow, or something similar. We should think about this further in this thread, I think.


The Process
This is how I envisage this design process working.

• We will deal with, as much as possible, 1 card at a time. From the experience of trying to deal with too many cards at once with too many people, it becomes very confusing and very difficult to keep up. Someone on the Dream Team will update the thread title to keep track of which card we are talking about at any given time.

• Perhaps let's try and follow the following order:
          1) Take suggestions for the card's text/flavour/any other notes
          2) Comment on the suggestions, and PLAY WITH THEM! More notes about this below.
          3) Refine the submitted cards and take another round of suggestions and comments
          4) Vote on the final competing versions, if necessary
          5) Move onto the next card and repeat.

• Playtesting is basically the most valuable thing we can all do when designing cards: unless you play with them, you have no idea whether they are fun, good, useless or annoying. You may have an inkling, but the only true test is to playtest, playtest, playtest. Maybe we'll try to make some draft slips and distribute them amongst the team (only), then play against each other. Get as many people as you possibly can to play against the cards we're designing, and play as many games as you can possibly fit in. I can't reiterate how completely VITAL this is! Try the cards individually as well as with other V cards as we go on. During this stage of design, we're not so worried about the card rules or power level, but the design value of how they play.

• If at any point we end up having individual designs that conflict with holistic design issues, then we may have to go back and refine an older card. We should probably do this at the end, once we've gone through all the cards in the set. Similarly, should one or more of the cards need to change original at a later date, we may also backtrack afterward.

• After we have gone through each individual card, then we will try and deal with any holistic issues that remain.

• Then we shall move onto development playtesting. Maybe here we'll distribute some "beta" slips to a wider group of playtesters, who will again play with the designed cards as much as possible. During this stage of playtesting, we need to pay special attention to power level and balance much more than their design potential.

• Once development playtests are done satisfactorily and any necessary changes made, we'll go through everything one last time.

• Then we'll work on releasing the cards on GCCG and real life! My vision here is promotion at tournaments. Maybe everyone who plays gets a RR (V) before anyone else, and winners get Gandalf and/or the WK.



I think I've said quite enough. When I'm writing this, I certainly don't mean to try and take control of everything. Of course we all need to input as much as we can, and I usually want people to disagree with me more than to agree! I just thought I'd lay down my thoughts upfront for others to critique (and please, please do!).

So, let the discussions commence! I think we should probably deal with all this preamble for a few days before getting onto designing the cards.

Thran
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 03:18:09 AM by Thranduil »

February 08, 2011, 06:51:01 PM
Reply #1

hyvee_doughboy

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Re: Virtual Set #1: The Process
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2011, 06:51:01 PM »
Thought #1:
>> • We will deal with, as much as possible, 1 card at a time. From the experience of trying to deal with too many cards at once with too many people, it becomes very confusing and very difficult to keep up.

This definately has merit. However, one thing that we may want to consider is making the Virtual Card *set* have a theme which may require more than 1 card to pull off.  For example, in the Star Wars players committee, they often released a set of V-cards that all worked well together. For example, they released a set that added "Vader's robotic parts", one added significantly to recreating the battle of Hoth, etc.   That way, you could really build a new *deck*, not just splash a few new cards.

For the first set, it probably makes sense to just V-ify a handful of cards hoping that they'll work well with existing cards, but it's something you may want to think about in the future.

Thought #2:

Does anyone here know anyone on the Star Wars CCG Player committe that designs any of their V-cards?  If so, it may make sense to contact them and find out what has/has not worked well for them.  They have a LOT of experience.  Maybe just a post on their discussion board asking for advice?

February 08, 2011, 07:12:11 PM
Reply #2

Tbiesty

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Re: Virtual Set #1: The Process
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2011, 07:12:11 PM »
...However, one thing that we may want to consider is making the Virtual Card *set* have a theme which may require more than 1 card to pull off.  For example, in the Star Wars players committee, they often released a set of V-cards that all worked well together. For example, they released a set that added "Vader's robotic parts", one added significantly to recreating the battle of Hoth, etc.   That way, you could really build a new *deck*, not just splash a few new cards.

For the first set, it probably makes sense to just V-ify a handful of cards hoping that they'll work well with existing cards, but it's something you may want to think about in the future.

I agree with this thought.  For this first set, picking a handful of cards (touching every culture), is a good way to get the hang of things.  However, each set after this should be more of a group of more closely related cards that help "recreate" a particular matchup or event from the movies or books, a true "theme" for a set.

Otherwise, the overall "Rules for Virtual Design" seem good (I'd just skip lore text altogether).  For playtesting, I can quickly produce the V-slips and make them available for download as needed.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 07:17:05 PM by Tbiesty »

February 08, 2011, 07:33:32 PM
Reply #3

jdizzy001

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Re: Virtual Set #1: The Process
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2011, 07:33:32 PM »
I hope you don't mind my following these V topics and commenting on them.  However, in regards to the proposed list. I say leave it as is and start making the V-texts.  If someone really wants to see a card redone wait for set 2.  The idea is to expand the game and the only way to do that is to stop correcting and altering the list of proposed cards to be V-ed. Just use the list you got and run with it. YOU CAN DO IT!  Also, as a final note which can be stored away for future sets, permanent weapons (if you played SWCCG you know what I mean.  If not don't worry about it yet cause you got a list of cards to make ;)).
*All posts made by jdizzy001, regardless of the thread in which they appear, are expressions of his own opinion and as such are not representative of views shared by any third party unless expressly acknowledged as such by said party.

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February 08, 2011, 07:43:19 PM
Reply #4

Tbiesty

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Re: Virtual Set #1: The Process
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2011, 07:43:19 PM »
Brainstorming time... I'll throw the first card idea out there.  Starting with The One Ring... (something with an "optional" ability)

The One Ring, The Ruling Ring (V)
Str: +1
While wearing The One Ring, each time bearer is about to take a wound, add a burden instead.
Fellowship:  Add 3 burdens to make the move limit +1 (limit +1).
Skirmish:  Wear The One Ring until the regroup phase.

« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 07:45:27 PM by Tbiesty »

February 08, 2011, 09:03:39 PM
Reply #5

hyvee_doughboy

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Re: Virtual Set #1: The Process
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2011, 09:03:39 PM »
I like variety.  I've always wanted to start Bilbo as a ringbearer, but nothing could convince me to do it.  Here's an interesting idea:

The One Ring, The Ruling Ring (V)
Str+1
Bearer must be Bilbo.
[insert cool idea here]
While wearing The One Ring, each time bearer is about to take a wound, add a burden instead.
Skirmish:  Wear The One Ring until the regroup phase.


A few options for the above (i'm open to others):
1) Tales played using Bilbo's text may play from discard pile.  (he is the author of There and Back Again)
2) Tales played using Bilbo's text may play from draw deck.  (might be too powerful)
3) [Gollum icon] characters are strength +2   (Bilbo pissed them off something terrible...and the ring does bring that out in people. Good for smeagol, bad vs gollum/shelob)


The intent here is to get some ideas flowing.  But...I'd *really* like to see it start with "Bearer must be Bilbo".  The reasoning is:
1) New ring abilities can be introduced without making it overpowerful (will only work in some decks)
2) Bilbo may actually get some play-time (this is about making "bad" cards good again...)
3) We already have a lot of generic rings to splash in decks.

February 09, 2011, 03:08:59 AM
Reply #6

Ringbearer

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Re: Virtual Set #1: The Process (The One Ring)
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2011, 03:08:59 AM »
I wouldnt specify Rings for special ringbearers, thats not gonna work. Also I find the move limit bonus ring too strong. Use it, play Sam SOH and walk freely.

I was more thinking of something along the line of:

The One Ring, The Ruling Ring (v)
One Ring
Str +1, Vit +1
While the ringbearer wears the one ring, each time he takes a wound, add a burden.
Fellowship: Exert the ringbearer to remove a threat.
Skirmish: add a burden to wear the One Ring.

Costs of course are up to debate, but we havent got a One Ring that deals with threats. Of course it has les use in FOTR TTT and TS, but its an interesting concept for other formats.

February 09, 2011, 05:28:23 AM
Reply #7

hyvee_doughboy

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Re: Virtual Set #1: The Process (The One Ring)
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2011, 05:28:23 AM »
>> I wouldnt specify Rings for special ringbearers, thats not gonna work.

I appreciate your response.  Could you clarify what you mean by the above?  I understand that it wouldn't be a general-purpose ring (that's actually the point :-)  ).  I understand that it won't fit in a lot of decks (that's the point as well).   We'll have that "problem" with a lot of cards. For example, there aren't many decks types that use Moria cards, yet a Moria card is on the V-List. That doesn't mean we need to make it fit in a lot of Moria decks...maybe just one or two.

Based on your comment, I'm guessing you have reasons why you feel it wouldn't work.  Please share those.  A good discussion is very helpful in bringing out new ideas.

February 09, 2011, 05:54:36 AM
Reply #8

hrcho

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Re: Virtual Set #1: The Process (The One Ring)
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2011, 05:54:36 AM »
I agree with RB that The One Ring shouldn't be limited to just Ring-bearer. We want to expand deckbuilding options, not limit them. I have no problem if the The One Ring did indeed encourage having Bilbo, BotB as the Ring-bearer in some way, but not limiting it to just Bilbo.

I like RB's idea about threats. It is indeed the case that there is no Ring that in any way deals with threats directly and it is also what we are looking for - a bit more specific than your general ring.

We should agree upon the rarity and power of The One Ring first. For example, RB's suggestion for a ring is definitely for a rare ring... it's quite powerful. I'm up for making a C/U ring. Perhaps removing that vitality or strength bonus from RB's suggestion of The One Ring might do the trick.


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February 09, 2011, 07:21:38 AM
Reply #9

Tbiesty

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Re: Virtual Set #1: The Process (The One Ring)
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2011, 07:21:38 AM »
The threats idea seems generic enough.  We can figure out the "correct power numbers" (Strength bonus, vitality bonus, resistence bonus) through playtesting.

(here's my guess at a "beta" version)

[Ring] The One Ring, The Ruling Ring (V)
Str +1
While wearing the one ring, each time bearer is about to take a wound, add a burden instead.
Fellowship: Exert bearer to remove a threat.
Skirmish: Wear the One Ring until the regroup phase

« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 07:31:38 AM by Tbiesty »

February 09, 2011, 10:33:41 AM
Reply #10

sdpsc

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Re: Virtual Set #1: The Process (The One Ring)
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2011, 10:33:41 AM »
I thought I'd throw an idea out there too.  I have no idea if this is a good idea or a bad one, but I think the attribute trade-offs are interesting.

The One Ring, The Ruling Ring (V)
Str: +3, Vit -1
While wearing The One Ring, each time bearer is about to take a wound, add a burden instead.
Response: If bearer is about to take a wound, he wears The One Ring until the regroup phase.

Joel

February 09, 2011, 11:10:30 AM
Reply #11

hrcho

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Re: Virtual Set #1: The Process (The One Ring)
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2011, 11:10:30 AM »
[Ring] The One Ring, The Ruling Ring (V)
Str +1
While wearing the one ring, each time bearer is about to take a wound, add a burden instead.
Fellowship: Exert bearer to remove a threat.
Skirmish: Wear the One Ring until the regroup phase

I like it, but I think vitality bonus might be more appropriate than strength since the ring asks for exertions. I guess we have to decide for whom we want to make it. [Shire] and Smeagol Ring-bearers need strength and all the others need vitality more. As far as I am concerned this is a done deal (any version - strength or vitality ring).


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February 09, 2011, 03:56:40 PM
Reply #12

Ringbearer

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Re: Virtual Set #1: The Process (The One Ring)
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2011, 03:56:40 PM »
I agree witht he others that when you pick a Ring for a specific ringbearer, you just limit deckbuilding a lot. Especially when the 1th set taht we wanna bring should be universally usable.

Also we should step away from thoughts about cards and rarity. There is no effect as: this ability is good, so its a rare, this ability is bad so its a common, this is moderate, so its unc. The original idea to make a common ring was just not to force players to have a rare in order to play the game.

February 09, 2011, 07:27:42 PM
Reply #13

jdizzy001

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Re: Virtual Set #1: The Process (The One Ring)
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2011, 07:27:42 PM »
is there a way to gather the "rejected texts" and save them for later? Just cause we don't want to use a certain text for 'Card A' doesn't mean we won't want it for 'Card B.'
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February 10, 2011, 02:17:41 AM
Reply #14

legolas3333

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Re: Virtual Set #1: The Process (The One Ring)
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2011, 02:17:41 AM »
One more thing about The One Ring... Perhaps have it be during regroup instead of fellowship phase, similar to Sting, Elven Long Knife.  Less rapid healing available and minions could be present to take advantage of the exertion.

[Ring] The One Ring, The Ruling Ring (V)
Str +1
While wearing the one ring, each time bearer is about to take a wound, add a burden instead.
Regroup: Exert bearer to remove a threat.
Skirmish: Wear the One Ring until the regroup phase


the Sting, elven long knife is great except sting is EXTREMELY OP, if your standard deck has frodo you are definitely running elven long knife I think it should either be, as ket said, adding a burden to remove a threat (though I see threat manipulation with shadowfax, gotm becoming a problem), OR you should need to add a burden to wear the ring then add text, Skirmish: If the wearing the One Ring, exert the Ring-Bearer to remove a threat.

just my two :gp:
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