Post your Gemp-LotR bugs here

[bibfortuna25]

I recently had a situation where I played New Errand on a minion during Faramir's skirmish (he was fighting 3 minions total), used Faramir's Bow to kill that minion, but New Errand did not trigger until the skirmish naturally resolved. New Errand should have triggered the moment its targeted minion was killed.

http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=bibfortuna$0vdmzekvgrqwkewl

[MarcinS]

I recently had a situation where I played New Errand on a minion during Faramir's skirmish (he was fighting 3 minions total), used Faramir's Bow to kill that minion, but New Errand did not trigger until the skirmish naturally resolved. New Errand should have triggered the moment its targeted minion was killed.

http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=bibfortuna$0vdmzekvgrqwkewl

Incorrect:
"A losing character is any character on the losing side in a skirmish when it resolves. Also, any character removed during his or her skirmish is a losing character, even if that character's side eventually wins."

Determining losing/winning characters is done during resolution of the skirmish, at which point - losing characters = characters on the losing side + any characters removed from the skirmish.

[bibfortuna25]

Note the second sentence of that statement. "Also, any character removed during his or her skirmish is a losing character." The Easterling was removed, so he is a losing character.

Here is the example from the rulebook:

Boromir, bearing a Blade of Gondor ("Skirmish:
Exert Boromir to wound an Orc or Uruk-hai he is
skirmishing."), faces two Uruk-hai who each have
only 1 vitality remaining. Boromir exerts once to
use the Blade and kill one of the Uruk-hai. That
Uruk-hai is a losing character. If the surviving
Uruk-hai goes on to win the skirmish, Boromir will
be a losing character, and that second Uruk-hai will
be a winning character.


The moment a character is removed, that character is a losing character.

[MarcinS]

The moment a character is removed, that character is a losing character.

Correct, it's a "losing character", but it does not "lose skirmish" until the point where the skirmish is finished.

I read the:
"A losing character is any character on the losing side in a skirmish when it resolves. Also, any character removed during his or her skirmish is a losing character, even if that character's side eventually wins."
as:
"A losing character is any character on the losing side in a skirmish when it resolves. In addition any character removed during his or her skirmish is a losing character."

And also the rules indirectly state when "loses/wins skirmish" actions are resolved:
"A skirmish phase ends after all actions triggered by winning or losing that skirmish have resolved."

[bibfortuna25]

I read the:
"A losing character is any character on the losing side in a skirmish when it resolves. Also, any character removed during his or her skirmish is a losing character, even if that character's side eventually wins."
as:
"A losing character is any character on the losing side in a skirmish when it resolves. Also, any character removed during his or her skirmish is a losing character, even if that character's side eventually wins."

The literal translation is the only correct way to interpret the rules. The rules tell of two ways a character can be a losing character: Resolve the skirmish by comparing strengths normally, or be removed somehow. New Errand should trigger mid-skirmish if its targeted minion is removed during that skirmish.

[MarcinS]

I read the:
"A losing character is any character on the losing side in a skirmish when it resolves. Also, any character removed during his or her skirmish is a losing character, even if that character's side eventually wins."
as:
"A losing character is any character on the losing side in a skirmish when it resolves. Also, any character removed during his or her skirmish is a losing character, even if that character's side eventually wins."

The literal translation is the only correct way to interpret the rules. The rules tell of two ways a character can be a losing character: Resolve the skirmish by comparing strengths normally, or be removed somehow. New Errand should trigger mid-skirmish if its targeted minion is removed during that skirmish.

No, you're reading it as:
"A losing character is any character on the losing side in a skirmish when it resolves. Any character removed during his or her skirmish immediately loses that skirmish, even if that character's side eventually wins."

Please note the first sentence refers to when losing/winning happens - "when it resolves", and the second sentence directly refers to the first sentence - "Also, ...". Therefore if you want literal translation, then - there you have it. First sentence says time "when (skirmish) resolves", and first and second sentences specify who is winning and who is losing.

[bibfortuna25]

There is no difference in the rules between a losing character and a character losing a skirmish. The second sentence provides a way for a character to lose before the skirmish resolves.

However, since we seem to both be pretty stubborn here, I've made a post in the Archives forum to see if we can get some other input.

[MarcinS]

There is no difference in the rules between a losing character and a character losing a skirmish. The second sentence provides a way for a character to lose before the skirmish resolves.

There is a difference when "losing" is an adjective ("losing character") and when "loses" is a verb ("character loses skirmish"). The first one defines inclusion in the group "losing characters", the other defines what happens "when loses skirmish".

If is as if you said, "there is no difference between assigned minion and when minion is assigned". The fact that minion is assigned (adjective) does not mean it triggers "when minion is assigned (verb)", because the minion is assigned (adjective) all the time from the time it is assigned (verb) to the time when it's either removed from skirmish, skirmish ends or is removed from play. The "when minion is assigned" will not be triggered at every opportunity, while the minion is assigned (adjective).

So, if I have a card saying "If ~this~ wins skirmish against an Orc, draw a card" and I'm skirmishing an Orc and kill it with an action, I do not get to draw a card?

[bibfortuna25]

Such a card would only trigger if that Orc was the only minion remaining in that skirmish.

A character loses if:

He is removed from the skirmish
The skirmish resolves normally with the other side having higher strength

A character wins if:

All characters on the other side are removed
The skirmish resolves normally with his side having higher strength


If the companion is skirmishing two or more minions and one is removed, that minion loses. However, the companion has not won the skirmish yet, because there is still another minion in that skirmish.

[MarcinS]

Such a card would only trigger if that Orc was the only minion remaining in that skirmish.

That makes no sense. If the orc is killed (via actions) before skirmish is resolved, it's no longer in skirmish, when the resolution of skirmish happens (due to missing one side).

[bibfortuna25]

It makes perfect sense.

If the only minion in a skirmish is removed, that minion has lost and the companion it was skirmishing has won.

If the companion is skirmishing two or more minions and one is removed (and the other is not), that minion loses, but the companion does not win because the skirmish hasn't resolved yet.



Let's say an 8-strength companion is fighting two minions, one with 10 strength and the other with 6 strength. An action causes the 6-strength minion to be removed/killed, and there are no further actions in the skirmish. So here are the results:

The 6-strength minion loses because it was removed.
The companion loses because the remaining minion had higher strength.
The 10-strength minion wins because it had higher strength than the companion.


It might not make sense intellectually, but as far as the game is concerned, one character losing does not necessarily mean a character on the other side will win.

[MarcinS]

It might not make sense intellectually, but as far as the game is concerned, one character losing does not necessarily mean a character on the other side will win.

I'm not saying it is. Lets get it into a timing stack then - as you see it, correct me if I'm wrong.

Companion A (with text "When A wins a skirmish involving [qualifier], draw a card") skirmishes Minion B (which matches the [qualifier]).

1. FP player announces an action (for 1 twilight) that wounds Minion B (lets assume B has 1 vitatlity).
2. Opportunity to play "is about to add twilight" effects.
3. FP player adds 1 twilight to twilight pool.
4. Opportunity to play "when [qualifier] is played".
5. Opportunity to play "is about to take wound" effects.
6. Wound is placed on the Minion B.
7. Opportunity to play "when wounded" effects.
7.1. Character death triggers as a required action.
7.2. Opportunity to play "is about to be killed/discarded" effects.
7.3. Minion is killed and placed in discard pile.
7.4. Opportunity to play "when is killed/discarded" and "when minion B loses skirmish" effects.
7.4.1. Skirmish resolves as a required action, involved in skirmish = "Companion A" (no "Minion B"), winning side = "Companion A".
7.4.2. Opportunity to play "is about to win/lose skirmish" effects.
7.4.3. Companion A is "winning", and there is 0 characters on the losing side.
7.4.4. Opportunity to play "when wins/loses skirmish".
7.4.5. Skirmish resolving finishes.
7.4. Character death action finishes.
8. The wounding action finishes, if it was coming from an event, it's placed in the discard pile

Please note then, in point 7.4.4, when Companion A is considered "winning", the "involved" group contains only "Companion A", as at the point when the "involved" group was created the Minion B was already in discard. Hence you can't play that trigger.

[hsiale]

The server is very slow today, making it more or less impossible to play. Marcin, do you know the reason of the problem?

[MarcinS]

The server is very slow today, making it more or less impossible to play. Marcin, do you know the reason of the problem?

I'm on it...

[MarcinS]

The server is very slow today, making it more or less impossible to play. Marcin, do you know the reason of the problem?

I'm on it...

Server is up and running. I will keep monitoring it.