Post your Gemp-LotR bugs here

[dmaz]

Yes, Sam's response is to frodo dying. The reason he can't respond however is because, as the rules state, the optional responses take place after all of the required actions. Sam responding to frodo dying is an optional response. Sam taking a wound is a required action. Sam taking the wound and dying happens first.

[bibfortuna25]

I don't recall, did we ever reach a consensus on Neekerbreekers' Bog + Lingering Shadow? When the Bog heals one guy, the condition will add a burden, which consequently should change "heal" to "exert" for some characters.

For consistency's sake (and in order to create fewer headaches), I think the owner of the cards being wounded should choose the order the wounds are placed in. That way Sam can take the Ring from Frodo when the Berserker does his thing, and the FP can choose the Lingering Shadowed guy to heal last.

[dmaz]

I don't recall, did we ever reach a consensus on Neekerbreekers' Bog + Lingering Shadow? When the Bog heals one guy, the condition will add a burden, which consequently should change "heal" to "exert" for some characters.

For consistency's sake (and in order to create fewer headaches), I think the owner of the cards being wounded should choose the order the wounds are placed in. That way Sam can take the Ring from Frodo when the Berserker does his thing, and the FP can choose the Lingering Shadowed guy to heal last.

Regardless of who places the wounds, how does Sam's optional response supersede the required action of wounding?

Maybe you didn't read the rules quote:

"After all such required actions have resolved,
players may perform optional actions responding
to that same trigger using the action procedure."

Thus, Sam does not get to take the ring until he is wounded just as Theoden, Tall and Proud would not play the companion until after all wounds have been placed.

I'm curious as to why people think an optional response has priority over a required action, when that has never been the case anywhere in the game before.

And to compare the Berserker Slayer situation to the Bog+Lingering Shadow is like comparing apples to oranges.
Lingering Shadow is a response directly related to required action itself. Sam's optional response is a response to the eventual result of such required actions having been completed. If you have any cards that respond to characters "about to take a wound", or "taking a wound" then they should be able to respond to the required action of wounding. Any cards that respond to any subsequent results of the wounding (wounding which takes place first, because it is a required action) can respond after all such wounds have been placed.

[bibfortuna25]

Because placing each individual wound token may cause a new chain of required actions. If Frodo is exhausted and he takes a wound, the required response to that is to place him in the dead pile. The remaining wounds from the Berserker are put on hold while Frodo is moved from play to the dead pile. Sam responds to that required action, and the Berserker wounds are still waiting in limbo. Once Sam has acquired the Ring, his action is removed from the conceptual stack, and the remaining wounds are now free to be placed.

[dmaz]

Because placing each individual wound token may cause a new chain of required actions. If Frodo is exhausted and he takes a wound, the required response to that is to place him in the dead pile. The remaining wounds from the Berserker are put on hold while Frodo is moved from play to the dead pile. Sam responds to that required action, and the Berserker wounds are still waiting in limbo. Once Sam has acquired the Ring, his action is removed from the conceptual stack, and the remaining wounds are now free to be placed.

That's an awful lot of information that I haven't seen anywhere in the rules.

Essentially what you're arguing is that if Frodo is killed, Sam should be able to take the Ring before placing all threat wounds (also required actions).

ADDED: Can't find "limbo", "put on hold", or "conceptual stack", anywhere in the rules. Maybe we should stick to the rules that are actually there.

[bibfortuna25]

Correct. Each wound is placed one at a time, in the order that the FP chooses.

The "stack" is a concept from Magic, but it also is used in LOTR and Star Wars. Essentially, there is only ever one action going on at any given time. Other actions may interrupt or affect that first action, and so they get placed on the "stack." Only the top action in the "stack" is occurring. Anything below that is suspended until the topmost action is completed and then removed from the "stack."

Here is an easy example of suspending an action while a new subset of actions is occurring:

Frodo is facing a damage +1 minion. Upon losing the skirmish, he is required to take 2 wounds. The first wound is now on the stack. As a response to this first wound, Frodo puts on the Ring and takes it as a burden. The Shadow player then responds with The Ring Is Mine! to add an additional burden (note that the second wound from the damage +1 minion is still at the bottom of the stack; it hasn't happened yet). Tolman Cotton then responds to TRIM to prevent the burden.

Once Tolman does his action, all of the sub-actions have come off the stack, and the second wound from the minion may now be placed.

So yes, Sam taking the Ring can interrupt actions such as the Berserker.
 

[dmaz]

So you're saying Sam can take the Ring before all threats are assigned?

[bibfortuna25]

That is correct. If you have 3 threats to distribute, you give Frodo the first one, he's killed and Sam takes the Ring, then you distribute the remaining 2.

[dmaz]

The situation I'm referring to is a situation of required action over optional response.

Frodo is killed in a skirmish. By your definition, you should be able to use Sam's optional response to take the ring and absorb threat wounds before distributing them.

[bibfortuna25]

In that situation, Sam cannot take the Ring until all threat wounds have been assigned.

These are not identical situations anyway. Threats are a required response to a companion being killed, and so they all must occur before Sam's optional action. With the Berserker, you are wounding every companion once, but since all wounds are placed one at a time, FP chooses the order and each wound can be responded to when appropriate.

[dmaz]

In that situation, Sam cannot take the Ring until all threat wounds have been assigned.

You just contradicted yourself. Quote from you: "So yes, Sam taking the Ring can interrupt actions..." If he can interrupt required actions, then for you to justify that him taking the ring from Frodo when he dies from this wound but not that wound, you would simply have to skew and stretch the rules into your own perspective even more so than you have done already.

Also, there's a difference between triggered responses and optional responses, and you have been comparing them congruently so far.

[bibfortuna25]

I didn't contradict myself at all. Read what I wrote.

Sam cannot take the Ring if Frodo dies in a skirmish and there are threat wounds to be placed, because the threat wounds are on top of the stack. Sam cannot initiate his own optional action until the required actions are complete.

[dmaz]

Sam cannot initiate his own optional action until the required actions are complete.

Thank you. This proves the point, and also reenforces what the rules say (optional responses are only able to happen after required actions are resolved).

To clear it out for everyone, I'll go to some experts on this. I'm getting kind of tired of hearing buzzwords and irrelevant analogies with other TCGs, rather than core foundation from the rules for this TCG itself.

I understand that it's nice how some TCGs are similar but that doesn't do anything for actually resolving how a conundrum for any one singular game is resolved

[bibfortuna25]

LOTR uses the same action procedure as Star Wars, albeit more streamlined and easier to follow. The "stack" concept was heavily referenced in Star Wars, and it most certainly applies here too.

As for the Sam situation, I think it's pretty simple, actually:

Scenario 1:

Frodo is killed in a skirmish and there are threats to place = Sam cannot take the Ring before threats are placed.

Scenario 2:

Someone else is killed in a skirmish, and the first threat wound kills Frodo = Sam can take the Ring before the remaining threats are placed.

[dmaz]

Pretty simple would mean you have quotes from the rules the back up the assertions...