TLHH Virtual Set #1: Preliminary Discussion

[Tbiesty]

Since its parent topic was moved to Bag End, I'm posting this here:

I'll add that I'm thinking the first Virtual Set (and just the first) should take approach 1 (fixing the banned cards).  There are a specific number of them (like 20 or so), so it would be a good exercise for the "Dream Team" to show how it can design, produce, distribute (via V-slips and perhaps GCCG), and play-test a Virtual Set successfully.

Once that achievement has been successfully reached (proving that the "Dream Team" can provide quality work), then further Virtual Sets using more of approach 2 (remaking cards) can be pursued.  These Virtual Sets should then stick to a "theme" (Hobbits escaping the Nazgul, Rohan deceived by Saruman and Evil Men, etc.), rather than just make random weaker cards more powerful.   If virtualizing a currently weak card fits into a "theme", even better.

[Kralik]

I actually pack Slippery As Fishes x4, odd as it is, in my Gollum deck. Together with a well-chosen site path, and Final Strike, it can be very helpful.

[hrcho]

Arwen, Undomiel is a beast.

[Jerba]

I concur with Ringbearer, creating a Virtual version of a card should not overshadow the use of the original. We are NOT redoing the cards we are simply creating new ones. If I wanted to play the original HTTWC in FOTR Block I still could. But now I get to play it in other scenarios as well.

I think that creating new game text for a card that has been in the game for a long time is not smart if the original text isn't still available. With virtual cards we should be adding to the palette not trading in the old for the new. We'll have HTTWC and HTTWC (V). Two distinct and useful cards in their own right.

[hrcho]

Ok. If I got things right, I believe we all concur that we will build a new virtual set of cards that will be mostly comprised of X-ed and never-played cards, but we will still leave those cards available for play as they are.

- If there are any objections, make them or be forever silent.
- If there are no objections, we move to the next step of the process - selecting the actual cards that are to be remade. I think we have so far agreed to take 12 cards + The One Ring. There have also been several proposals as to which cards should be selected. Let's hear a few more and then I (or another Mod) will post a poll to finally decide which cards to select.
- once the cards are selected, we move to the actual remaking of those cards and creation of Virtual Set #1.

[Tbiesty]

Before you proceed, I'd like to understand how/when you will address this issue:

Since the number of X-listed cards if relatively small, and they that can all be fixed by small tweaks, I'd like to understand how these virtual sets will relate to implementing/distributing those fixes.

A couple options I find acceptable:
1)  Have the (V) version of the card be used as a "fixed" version of the card.
2)  Have the (V) version really be a separate card completely (with completely different game text), but then something, (perhaps by The Rules Team, or whoever decides which cards are allowed in each format), would be done for generating the "fixed" cards.

If you go with option 1, you can always wait in making (V) version of the X-listed cards, and just stick to weak cards, until you are comfortable with this "Dream Team" process.

The number of X-listed cards is very small, let's take this opportune time to make it right.

In fact, I've already created Card Inserts (V-slips), so much of the work has already been done.

Once I understand that you at least "have a plan" for the X-listed cards, I'll withhold my objection.

Thanks!

[Thranduil]

I do agree that there should be a few to get the ball rolling, but having community brainstorming at first isn't a bad idea either.

I'd suggest not errata'ing cards that are X-ed. Why? Take HttWC for example. He has his place in Fellowship Block. If you errata him to give him play in other blocks, he's gimped in Fellowship. Don't like choke? Then maybe Fellowship block isn't for you.

Yes indeed. Erratas are the domain of the Rules Team.

Also, I'd like to add a clarification that I think we should start with (V) versions of never-played cards rather than (V) versions of X-ed cards. Dealing with X-ed cards is again the domain of the Rules Team, and not the Dream Team. At least, in my view.

Sorry it took me so long to reply here, but for some reason the forum stopped notifying me of replies. Had I been here earlier, I would have said that we need to make clear the distinction between errata and (V) cards.

• (V) cards are in no way a "fix" for old cards. They are a way of taking the same card and adding a new flavour spin to it. This is to revitalise deck-building and to get excited about new cards in the community, without having to actually print anything, make any pictures, or breech copyright.

• Erratas are entirely a fix for old cards. They are either to fix power or rules issues. They are something which is made to maintain the spirit of the original card, both in rules and flavour.

These are fundamentally different concepts, and I think this discussion is getting confused.

We are talking about (V) cards. The reason we are talking about using old useless cards is because:

i) There are a lot of early cards for which the power level is just completely off due to lack of familiarity or experience with the game rules on Decipher's part.

ii) It is a shame to have cards (especially rare cards) sitting around in people's boxes and trade folders and not be used because they're too useless or limited.

These are reasons why old useless cards (or indeed X-ed cards) would be the No. 1 and 2 targets for (V) cards, but NOT in any way the same reasons that you might choose a card to make an errata.

Hopefully this rant makes sense!

Thranduil

[Thranduil]

1)  Have the (V) version of the card be used as a "fixed" version of the card.

This is why I think we need to be careful about the distinction between (V) cards and erratas. A great way to distribute erratas is to produce slips which people can just put over their sleeved cards. But those are not (V) cards! They are erratas.

I would add that your slips look fantastic. If they were to be released by the TLHH Player's Group alongside (V) cards, then I think they should have distinctive characteristics so that they could not be confused.

Thranduil

[hrcho]

Thank you, Thranduil for clearing things up completely (at least as far as I am concerned). I was just writing something similar, but you put it down way better than I could have.

I think we are now clear for selecting the cards. The criteria for the suggested cards would look something like this:

- Cards that are rarely if ever played
- One card per culture (where culture is defined for those before Shadows)
- We need a companion or two and a minion or two
- Cards suggested should not be from an X-List (we will leave that for later time and another team)

Anyone wants to add anything else?

[Thranduil]

I think a change of tact: let's take a step back and not look for cards we want to make into (V) cards, but about the goals for the V-set.

These are my goals (other thoughts greatly appreciated):

• Open new deckbuilding options
• Complement unfinished and/or unsupported strategies
• Take old rares out of the trade folders and into decks where they belong
• Include a spread of cultures and card types
• Include cards for a spread of different sorts of players

Any other important goals I might have missed out?

I'm going to make a design skeleton. What it's going to do is have the 9 slots (this number can change at any time, of course!) along with, for the moment, their card-types. They are each going to have a code. The code will run:

SSCC#

where SS is the set code (for the first V-set, this will be V1), CC is the card's culture (for the moment blank until we work this out more fully, so I will write **), and # is the card's number (1-9, or however many we end up with).

V1*R1         —       A Ring

FP
V1**2         —       Major companion (set flagship)
V1**3         —       Companion/ally (ally --> follower?)
V1**4         —       Condition or possession
V1**5         —       Event

SH
V1**6         —       Major minion (set flagship)
V1**7         —       Minion
V1**8         —       Condition or possession
V1**9         —       Event


The set flagships are exciting, flashy cards to get people into the V-set.

When we are going through each card, we will need to have in mind what we want out of it. For example, I think that each FP and SH should have at least 1 card that is designed to work with a strategy that never got going (Warg-riders, or discard for example).

Any comments for anything that I've said in my last few posts?

Thranduil

[Tbiesty]

Thanks guys!  I'm good with that and agree on the different team responsibilities.

You may proceed!

[hrcho]

Things look clear now for me to start suggesting some cards (although many have already been suggested). I will suggest 12 cards + The One Ring because that's option I prefer. It is not fixed and can be discussed and changed accordingly. I will attempt to find cards that would best fit the goals Thranduil put because they seem good to me and in the end, Thran is the one with the most experience and knowledge about this sort of thing around here.

-  The Weight of a Legacy - this is the one card I am 99% sure will be remade. I don't think it needs any explaining as to why. I think its the best candidate for the 1st V-set.

- a strategy that has a lot of cards, but has never really worked and rarely if ever sees play is Hobbits with a discarding Smeagol. This is where we could add a new card to try make it workable and maybe even competitive to a point. These are the cards that are related to that strategy:
Frodo, Master of the Precious
No Help for It
Rare Good Ballast
It Burns Us
Maybe a change to one of those cards could return that strategy back to life.

- Stump and Bramble. I like the general idea of the card, but its main disadvantage is that it's too meta specific. The only ent ally is Treebeard and there are 2 versions of him - Oldest Living Thing and Earthborn. While Earthborn actually sees occasional play, Oldest Living Thing does not. Maybe with some change to Stump and Bramble we could make ally Treebeard more playable.

more coming soon... gotta run now

[hrcho]

@ Tbiesty: I generally like the cards you suggested with a few exceptions:

- I would like to create a completely new ring (this is just my preference) and while the text of your ring seems ok, I would've called it something else instead of Isildur's Bane. It would be a C/U ring.

- Arwen, LU - it indeed doesn't use as much use as some other versions of Arwen, but it's a strong card with a nice text. I'd rather see Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor or Gimli, Lockbearer take the place as a flagship character. I still have to ask ket why he thinks Gimli, DoE great. I could count the number of times I've seen both Lockbearer and Dwarf of Erebor in play on the fingers of one hand. Also, your text for Arwen, LU makes can make her near to indestructible.

- The Witch-King, Deathless Lord - I agree that he could be the minion we remake, but your version of him I don't agree with. That's a very powerful text you gave him. I also don't like him as Twilight because his pic isn't as a twilight nazgul.

We have also made a little counting mistake. There are 6 Free Peoples cultures and 6 Shadow cultures, but in addition, there is Gollum culture. We could make two [gollum] cards - one to supplement Smeagol and one Gollum. That would make 7 Free Peoples and 7 Shadow cards + The One Ring = 15 cards.

I also think we shouldn't get ahead of ourselves and let's first agree upon the cards we will take for the V-set and the number of those cards and then we will see what we can do with them.

I will soon post more suggestion for the cards.

[Tbiesty]

I'll stay more on topic this time...  

Going with 1 The One Ring, 7 Free Peoples, and 7 Shadow cards, sounds like a good size for a set (by focusing on hitting each culture with this first set is a good idea).

Here's a possible set that I think would work.

Ring:                                 V1R1   The One Ring, Must Be Destroyed

Companion:                       V1F2   Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor
Ally:                                  V1F3     Sigewulf, Brave Volunteer
Other:                               V1F4     Stump and Bramble
                                         V1F5     Lightfootedness
                                         V1F6     Days Growing Dark
                                         V1F7     Change of Plans
                                         V1F8     Fearing the Worst

Major Minion:                     V1S9     The Witch-King, Deathless Lord
Minor Minion:                     V1S10     Gollum, Nasty Treacherous Creature
Other:                                V1S11     Alive and Unspoiled
                                          V1S12   The Weight of a Legacy
                                          V1S13   Men of Harad
                                          V1S14   The End Comes
                                          V1S15   Leaping Blaze


Idea for The One Ring:

•The One Ring, Must Be Destroyed (Something to encourage an urgency to destroy the ring, i.e. double-moving)
Str: +1
Res: +1
Each time the fellowship moves during the fellowship phase, either exert the Ring-bearer or add a burden.
Response: If the Ring-bearer is about to take a wound, he or she wears The One Ring until the regroup phase. While the Ring-bearer is wearing The One Ring, each time he or she is about to take a wound, add a burden instead.

[Witchkingx5]

Agree on the card list, besides Gimli, DoE. I agree that this card is great, as it can be used very well in a Arwen, EoL Deck when Mallorn-Trees gets discarded, so I don't think we should remake this one. Elven Stalwart would be like a much better choice.

Lockbearer is great in TTT Block and TS.

As for the Ring, I don't think I would ever play him at all. During an average game, you movie like 5 times during the fellowship phase, presumably you don't have any possibilities to make the move limit +X. So this is about 5 Burdens per game, -1 as the Ring provides one Resistance. I'd always play SaWtC or AtAR over it.

And whenever creating such type of cards, it's really hard to get something "average" or "just fine". Whenever you start adding Burdens as a game text besides taking wounds, the card wither becomes extremely overpowered (when the opportunity is too good) or unplayable (when the drawback is too big and the advantage too small - as the Ring above).

So I wouldn't really touch this area. It's much better to create an "average" card. The game needs those, you can always make like a little twist to a card, but the basics should be like really simple, easy to understand and fun to play.